Quote:Personal attacks, excessive trolling and trolling in a malicious way, baiting and spamming, racist or homophobic remarks and any other types of comments that are meant to slander members of a certain religious, ethnic group, or those with disabilities will not be tolerated.

09-14-2018, 09:08 PMWally Wrote:

09-14-2018, 08:53 PMSlappydoodle Wrote:

09-14-2018, 03:34 PMWally Wrote: To those that feel the need to bait those in saying listed banned terms or words that would deserve a punishment, realize that we will request the full conversation. If there is a determination that the user was baited, drawn into, or otherwise antagonized into violating a personal conduct rule, then you will be punished in the exact same manner

         Posting of additional vocabulary primarily used to slander various religions, ethnic groups, those with disabilities and sexual designations will leave you vulnerable to the same punishments as listed below on a retroactive basis from 9/14/18, going forward (meaning any word used that is deemed in violation will be added to the list and penalized immediately).

4. From this point forward, Discord, as an extension of the SHL itself being represented, will now be under the same scrutiny as the website, simulationhockey.com. While, there will be no need for LRs to have HO involved on a day-to-day basis, as cases are presented they will be reviewed and determined as punishable (or not) at the discretion of the HO.

I would like to preface my comments by saying for the record, I am not someone that courts trouble on this site or any other. I do not tend to use inappropriate language on the boards and rarely, if ever, get into fights or even disagreements around here. I am virtually certain none of this will ever effect me directly. This is about principle and fairness.

While I don’t have an issue with much of this, the above three aspects are troubling.

People are going to have disagreements on the site. They will say mean and hurtful things to one another, on occasion. Who’s to say what constitutes baiting or drawing in. People are responsible for their own words and actions. To blame one party for another’s use of a banned word is nonsensical. Allow people to be responsible for their own actions and not hide behind claims of provocation and inducements.

This second bit is truly outrageous and dictatorial. You are granting yourself the power to retroactively add words to the banned list and punish people for using them before a ruling is ever issued on their acceptability!? This should not be surprising from the same HO that punished c for doing something you felt should be illegal even though it clearly was not. The ex-post facto precedent was set then and apparently is thriving under this regime. It is frankly disturbing and ridiculous that anyone feels they can just change rules after the fact and punish indiscriminately whatever behavior they feel like.

The Discord thing is also egregious. How far does this power extend. If I e-mail someone privately, does the league have the power to punish me for what I wrote? If I meet someone in real life and call them hateful names, can I be banned for this? If I PM someone on Discord in a private conversation, you feel you have the right to punish me? What if it is on discord but completely unrelated to the SHL, like a wrestling or gaming area, or whatever else? How far does your reach extend?

I understand the HO is trying to sanitize the league and create a safe space here. I am not trying to cast doubt as to your motivations. However, I find it deeply disturbing how easily this HO slips into abuses of power and despotic tendencies. The answer always seems to be making up new rules to justify the results you want and then applying them to past behavior. It is keeping in step with the recent decision to take over the GM hiring process. Freedom in the SHL has been dying a slow and painful death for years now. You can not justify anything at all by merely claiming it is in the service of a kinder, gentler SHL.

I think my thought process can be summed up in what I recently sent @“wumaduce” :
We don’t have an age restriction and with that being the case we merely educate those that may never be on a path of bigotry and hatefulness that it is okay.

In saying that Discord is a public domain and is representative of the league as a whole hence it being an extension of the SHL.  We use team names, logos, player names... all of it league related.

As for the retroactive... go to the SHL discord. There is already a handful of people trying to think of terminology that still tries to find a loophole of what you can and cannot say. If you can’t stop yourself from being an asshat then you will face the scrutiny of facing a penalty retro actively. Why does one need to be a bigot to offend someone? We both know damn well we’re arent going to punish someone for calling them an asshole... or a fuck nugget. In 2018, we shouldn’t need to have this... it is common sense. I know many that do this stupid shit know exactly what they are doing. They will always push the envelope. Why? Who knows.

09-15-2018, 04:16 AMBaelor Swift Wrote: Again, everyone should note that these new rules fall under this umbrella:

Quote:Personal attacks, excessive trolling and trolling in a malicious way, baiting and spamming, racist or homophobic remarks and any other types of comments that are meant to slander members of a certain religious, ethnic group, or those with disabilities will not be tolerated.

If you're not using gay as a slur, I can't imagine it would be punished by this rule. If you aren't sure if what you're saying can be punished by this rule, you should probably do everyone a huge favor and not say it.

09-15-2018, 04:46 AMToeDragon84 Wrote:

09-15-2018, 04:16 AMBaelor Swift Wrote: Again, everyone should note that these new rules fall under this umbrella:

Quote:Personal attacks, excessive trolling and trolling in a malicious way, baiting and spamming, racist or homophobic remarks and any other types of comments that are meant to slander members of a certain religious, ethnic group, or those with disabilities will not be tolerated.

If you're not using gay as a slur, I can't imagine it would be punished by this rule. If you aren't sure if what you're saying can be punished by this rule, you should probably do everyone a huge favor and not say it.

Okay ye this umbereellla makes sense maybe i should learn to read the whole thing better. 

I don't think there should be a list of banned words at all though. Down the line this invites people to push things, use new words just to see if they can get away with it. We really gotta write it down not to call each other the N word? HO should just hand out punishments as necessary cause the addition of rules like this is going have people that act in response to the rules, will be shitty people outing themselves, but that happens anyways and there's just more potential unnecessary drama.

09-14-2018, 04:29 PMThatDamnWalrus Wrote: HO are a massive bundle of sticks

09-15-2018, 11:54 AMiOBESE Wrote: After reading 10 pages of comments and especially the first comments that came in after the og, I feel that the og should have a disclaimer - common sense required, because so much that was said was such bs. I do not understand why people here are so much focusing on use of specific words in general or specific context, instead of understanding that this is against any kind of insult towards other person, group etc.

09-15-2018, 12:52 PMToeDragon84 Wrote:

09-15-2018, 11:54 AMiOBESE Wrote: After reading 10 pages of comments and especially the first comments that came in after the og, I feel that the og should have a disclaimer - common sense required, because so much that was said was such bs. I do not understand why people here are so much focusing on use of specific words in general or specific context, instead of understanding that this is against any kind of insult towards other person, group etc.

or because that obviously doesn't work since they have to make this rule to begin with they could clarify the main part of it to be more understandable. As it is now the most important paragraph reads like you can't ever say gay or retard.

Code:

a. Simply using the following words in a sentence, alone, or in images sitewide (including the Thunderdome)

Should be something like: Using the following words in a negative manner or as a means of attack in a sentence etc. 
That way the entire rule would make more sense instead of reading like we're protecting gay people so hard we can't even talk about them like some untouchable indian kids or w/e cause i'm fuckin dumb and thought that's what we were doing.

09-15-2018, 01:08 PMiOBESE Wrote:

09-15-2018, 12:52 PMToeDragon84 Wrote:

09-15-2018, 11:54 AMiOBESE Wrote: After reading 10 pages of comments and especially the first comments that came in after the og, I feel that the og should have a disclaimer - common sense required, because so much that was said was such bs. I do not understand why people here are so much focusing on use of specific words in general or specific context, instead of understanding that this is against any kind of insult towards other person, group etc.

or because that obviously doesn't work since they have to make this rule to begin with they could clarify the main part of it to be more understandable. As it is now the most important paragraph reads like you can't ever say gay or retard.

Code:

a. Simply using the following words in a sentence, alone, or in images sitewide (including the Thunderdome)

Should be something like: Using the following words in a negative manner or as a means of attack in a sentence etc. 
That way the entire rule would make more sense instead of reading like we're protecting gay people so hard we can't even talk about them like some untouchable indian kids or w/e cause i'm fuckin dumb and thought that's what we were doing.

Sure, I agree with most of the stuff that people who are being serious about this, had said, but I personally just do not imagine HO to do a punishment just because someone said a word.

09-15-2018, 04:01 AMBaelor Swift Wrote:

09-14-2018, 09:42 PMThatDamnMcJesus Wrote:

09-14-2018, 09:37 PMWally Wrote:

09-14-2018, 09:32 PMThatDamnMcJesus Wrote:

09-14-2018, 09:08 PMWally Wrote: I think my thought process can be summed up in what I recently sent @“wumaduce” :
We don’t have an age restriction and with that being the case we merely educate those that may never be on a path of bigotry and hatefulness that it is okay.

In saying that Discord is a public domain and is representative of the league as a whole hence it being an extension of the SHL.  We use team names, logos, player names... all of it league related.

As for the retroactive... go to the SHL discord. There is already a handful of people trying to think of terminology that still tries to find a loophole of what you can and cannot say. If you can’t stop yourself from being an asshat then you will face the scrutiny of facing a penalty retro actively. Why does one need to be a bigot to offend someone? We both know damn well we’re arent going to punish someone for calling them an asshole... or a fuck nugget. In 2018, we shouldn’t need to have this... it is common sense. I know many that do this stupid shit know exactly what they are doing. They will always push the envelope. Why? Who knows.

I think they are just pointing the hole through the rule and are unhappy with how badly worded the rule is.

But why? In fear of being suspended for being a bigot? Just don’t be one and there will be nothing to worry about.

no They are just wanting to know to what extend is this rule. Is posting rap videos going to be an issue or is having someone with the last name gay going to be issues. I know the intent of the rule is not to use slurs at all or what if there are two black guys calling each other the n word would they get banned too? You need to be more literal when you are making rules or people are going to question them. Just like the Marius Rule where again the intent of the rule is that you need to include you capped tpe in every post but why doesn't it clearly say that in the rule?

Holy shit this is a dumb argument. Brb gonna post a rap video to test this stupid ass strawman theory people who want to use homophobic/racist slurs are making.

09-15-2018, 01:39 PMSlappydoodle Wrote:

09-15-2018, 04:01 AMBaelor Swift Wrote:

09-14-2018, 09:42 PMThatDamnMcJesus Wrote:

09-14-2018, 09:37 PMWally Wrote:

09-14-2018, 09:32 PMThatDamnMcJesus Wrote: I think they are just pointing the hole through the rule and are unhappy with how badly worded the rule is.

But why? In fear of being suspended for being a bigot? Just don’t be one and there will be nothing to worry about.

no They are just wanting to know to what extend is this rule. Is posting rap videos going to be an issue or is having someone with the last name gay going to be issues. I know the intent of the rule is not to use slurs at all or what if there are two black guys calling each other the n word would they get banned too? You need to be more literal when you are making rules or people are going to question them. Just like the Marius Rule where again the intent of the rule is that you need to include you capped tpe in every post but why doesn't it clearly say that in the rule?

Holy shit this is a dumb argument. Brb gonna post a rap video to test this stupid ass strawman theory people who want to use homophobic/racist slurs are making.

With all due respect, it is wrong to impugn the motives of those you disagree with and try to belittle their arguments. It is important to maintain a respectful attitude. I’m sure both sides in this debate could agree on that.

One important issue here is that written rules need to be held to a higher standard . The thinking behind them at the time of their writing will not necessarily be clear to others in the future. They will always be open to interpretation by future HO members and users here, alike. Combine that with a willingness to punish people for their off-site activities and a stated willingness to retroactively ban words not previously mentioned. This adds up to bad law in my opinion and should be re-thought and more importantly, re-written.

09-15-2018, 12:52 PMToeDragon84 Wrote:

Code:

a. Simply using the following words in a sentence, alone, or in images sitewide (including the Thunderdome)

Should be something like: Using the following words in a negative manner or as a means of attack in a sentence etc. 
That way the entire rule would make more sense instead of reading like we're protecting gay people so hard we can't even talk about them like some untouchable indian kids or w/e cause i'm fuckin dumb and thought that's what we were doing.