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*CementHands* · 07-13-2023, 09:45 PM

07-13-2023, 08:49 PMsve7en Wrote: That wasn't the case for any of the players this happened to this season, and I'm kinda tired of seeing this implication. One was a draft pick made with other teams still picking, the other two were waiver claims and not some floating life preserver tossed out.

On a loosely related note, can we run back the playoffs with Carolina having players I didn't keep because we were full? I'm sure a few other teams would appreciate that too.

Well unless we’re talking completely different and isolated events, every player involved from Maine in this was: 3rdround pick, 8th slot waiver pickup, waiver pass through. Everything I’ve heard has also been off handed comments in tertiary locker rooms, several saying they heard it in Carolina, so I’m curious what instance you are thinking of if it isn’t this one I’ve been seing talk of these last few weeks?

***sve7en*** · 07-13-2023, 10:10 PM

07-13-2023, 09:45 PMCementHands Wrote: Well unless we’re talking completely different and isolated events, every player involved from Maine in this was: 3rdround pick, 8th slot waiver pickup, waiver pass through. Everything I’ve heard has also been off handed comments in tertiary locker rooms, several saying they heard it in Carolina, so I’m curious what instance you are thinking of if it isn’t this one I’ve been seing talk of these last few weeks?

That is almost exactly what I said tbf. And to clarify, the third was a waiver claim: https://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=131426

Also, I searched "Maine", "waiver", "rookie", "bench", and "active", and outside of a bit in a management channel where we weren't gonna tolerate any Maine shade despite not having any problems with our people so far and a joke I made that alluded to the situation when it was showing up on the forum, I got nothing. I hit you up on discord to see if we can clear anthing up, because after I had that blow up on me seasons ago I wasn't going to tolerate that behavior. Other locker rooms sure, but I've tried to separate Carolina from that.

***sköldpaddor*** · 07-13-2023, 10:22 PM

07-13-2023, 09:29 PMSburbine Wrote: A ninth waiver spot is someone that was passed over by eight out of 14 teams, not some social outcast. They would have played somewhere over an inactive easily. I didn't really mind the benching all that much and didn't make a stink about it even though we were swept in the final, but the discourse that Maine did some selfless act and is getting punished for it is simply wrong. I'm glad the rule is now in place because it not only helps level out teams but it makes it so everyone can play without feeling pressured to sit on the bench.

piggybacking off sburb's post here just to add - I do not think this was ever malicious. From the sound of it, this season at least, the players who rode the bench were totally fine with doing so. I'm not looking at this from an angle of "these poor innocent afflicted players, look what horrible Maine has done to them!" I'm sure the majority of people would be fine splitting playing time if they thought it got them a better chance at a cup, but that doesn't change the fact that it screws over other teams who could really have used active players to boost their locker room activity and improve their team competitively. Just because people are okay with doing something doesn't make it fair to the rest of the league. I'm sure there's a ton of us who would just play for free and not take any contract money if it was allowed and wouldn't be bothered in the slightest, but we have salary requirements anyway because it would break things or imbalance them to not have those guidelines in place.

The issue isn't that people were forced to settle for something they didn't want to, the issue is that it's competitively imbalanced for one team to have players not even playing, just waiting in the wings to replace everyone who ages out or gets called up, while other teams are struggling to fill their teams with actives. I've heard a decent amount of trash talk from a couple of teams about "dead locker rooms" on other teams, but how is that actually a fair criticism when one team has an entire forward line worth of actives just stockpiled?

I don't think this was some grand conspiracy on Maine's part to screw over the rest of the league or anything, and I don't want to discredit the work they've done to foster an active locker room and a culture that people want to be a part of, this is just something that doesn't really have a place in a dev league any more than the skewed system of free agency was that we had before. And I don't think it's fair to say that all of these players were just castaways that nobody wanted - that's just not something that can be said for certain when they were either drafted while other teams had still not passed, picked up only halfway down the waivers order, or (worst, in my opinion), traded for from other teams who were only moving them because they didn't have room to play them.

It was broken, it's been addressed, I'm glad it was addressed, I am tired, I hope we can all move on.

*CementHands* · 07-14-2023, 12:03 AM

07-13-2023, 10:22 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: piggybacking off sburb's post here just to add - I do not think this was ever malicious. From the sound of it, this season at least, the players who rode the bench were totally fine with doing so. I'm not looking at this from an angle of "these poor innocent afflicted players, look what horrible Maine has done to them!" I'm sure the majority of people would be fine splitting playing time if they thought it got them a better chance at a cup, but that doesn't change the fact that it screws over other teams who could really have used active players to boost their locker room activity and improve their team competitively. Just because people are okay with doing something doesn't make it fair to the rest of the league. I'm sure there's a ton of us who would just play for free and not take any contract money if it was allowed and wouldn't be bothered in the slightest, but we have salary requirements anyway because it would break things or imbalance them to not have those guidelines in place.

The issue isn't that people were forced to settle for something they didn't want to, the issue is that it's competitively imbalanced for one team to have players not even playing, just waiting in the wings to replace everyone who ages out or gets called up, while other teams are struggling to fill their teams with actives. I've heard a decent amount of trash talk from a couple of teams about "dead locker rooms" on other teams, but how is that actually a fair criticism when one team has an entire forward line worth of actives just stockpiled?

I don't think this was some grand conspiracy on Maine's part to screw over the rest of the league or anything, and I don't want to discredit the work they've done to foster an active locker room and a culture that people want to be a part of, this is just something that doesn't really have a place in a dev league any more than the skewed system of free agency was that we had before. And I don't think it's fair to say that all of these players were just castaways that nobody wanted - that's just not something that can be said for certain when they were either drafted while other teams had still not passed, picked up only halfway down the waivers order, or (worst, in my opinion), traded for from other teams who were only moving them because they didn't have room to play them.

It was broken, it's been addressed, I'm glad it was addressed, I am tired, I hope we can all move on.

Yes, because these players who management worked their ass off every day to coax into some kind of activity would be just as active in any other team?
You were one of the biggest proponents of the waiver system when it was implemented.
Again, they are taking players who have been overlooked or dropped elsewhere and giving them a home. Making a welcoming place for players who might not be able to, or care to max earn, and saying shame on them these players should be forced to go to other teams. You assume these players would all be exactly as active without all that extra effort, and it’s just plain false.

*CementHands* · 07-14-2023, 12:06 AM

Not deleting what I’ve posted earlier. I’ll address issues directly in PMs tomorrow.

If anyone is offended by anything I’ve said, feel free to hit my DMs and I’ll respond tomorrow. For now I’m going to bed and I wish everyone a good night.

***boom*** · 07-14-2023, 12:17 AM

07-14-2023, 12:03 AMCementHands Wrote: Yes, because these players who management worked their ass off every day to coax into some kind of activity would be just as active in any other team?
You were one of the biggest proponents of the waiver system when it was implemented.
Again, they are taking players who have been overlooked or dropped elsewhere and giving them a home. Making a welcoming place for players who might not be able to, or care to max earn, and saying shame on them these players should be forced to go to other teams. You assume these players would all be exactly as active without all that extra effort, and it’s just plain false.

This argument seems weird, seems to come from a place of "other GMs just can't do team/LR-building as good" when they don't actually have the chance to prove that because the players are just sitting on some other team for no reason.

You're assuming that those players would have been "wasted" on those other teams which is an oddly patronizing take.

*CementHands* · 07-14-2023, 12:37 AM

07-14-2023, 12:17 AMboom Wrote: This argument seems weird, seems to come from a place of "other GMs just can't do team/LR-building as good" when they don't actually have the chance to prove that because the players are just sitting on some other team for no reason.

You're assuming that those players would have been "wasted" on those other teams which is an oddly patronizing take.

Not all teams, but some absolutely. Mostly because they already were. As mentioned earlier one of the players was a later pick in a small activity draft class, and 2 were waiver pickups, one of which went through waivers, so yes, literally every team had an opportunity to pick them up and chose not to.

I never said “other GMs can’t GM good”, I said South and Toe are doing a fucking fantastic job. You decided to take that as “everyone else sucks” which isn’t true or accurate.

I am quite honestly tired of this echo chamber. I am coming in defensive of the team that I know and check in with. They have been accused of improper behaviour, and I want to publicly state that I’ve seen them working their asses off. (Again, this doesn’t read other GMs don’t care as much, or work as hard, other GMs are not the ones who have been accused these last few weeks). They care about the people on their team and helping the league grow, which should be the goal of the smjhl.

***aleks*** · 07-14-2023, 12:40 AM

07-14-2023, 12:37 AMCementHands Wrote: Not all teams, but some absolutely.

Which

***boom*** · 07-14-2023, 12:43 AM

07-14-2023, 12:37 AMCementHands Wrote: Not all teams, but some absolutely. Mostly because they already were. As mentioned earlier one of the players was a later pick in a small activity draft class, and 2 were waiver pickups, one of which went through waivers, so yes, literally every team had an opportunity to pick them up and chose not to.

I never said “other GMs can’t GM good”, I said South and Toe are doing a fucking fantastic job. You decided to take that as “everyone else sucks” which isn’t true or accurate.

I am quite honestly tired of this echo chamber. I am coming in defensive of the team that I know and check in with. They have been accused of improper behaviour, and I want to publicly state that I’ve seen them working their asses off. (Again, this doesn’t read other GMs don’t care as much, or work as hard, other GMs are not the ones who have been accused these last few weeks). They care about the people on their team and helping the league grow, which should be the goal of the smjhl.

The point is that you can’t say other teams wouldn’t be able to properly onboard players when they don’t have the rights to said players because y’all do and aren’t using them. How is that supposed to be read any other way than taking potshots at them?

*CementHands* · 07-14-2023, 01:20 AM

07-14-2023, 12:43 AMboom Wrote: The point is that you can’t say other teams wouldn’t be able to properly onboard players when they don’t have the rights to said players because y’all do and aren’t using them. How is that supposed to be read any other way than taking potshots at them?

And I just explained how teams had the ability to fairly easily take two of these 3 players that have been mentioned. The third one was over half way through waivers and I’m assuming here that these “other teams” would have been low on the priority and therefore a great chance at 3/3. I’ll also mention at least one player had been dropped by a team earlier, so there’s that.

I am not representing Maine, so please direct anger at what I’m saying directly towards me and not them. I’m not involved with them in any official capacity any more and my interactions with them are usually a few check ins a month.

And yes, I absolutely can say that because there are players like that that exist - either appearing IA or on the verge of IA that teams give up on. I said Maine gave some of these players a home when no one else would, and you come in guns blazing equating us to some gold hoarding goblin. No, they don’t hoard prospects. They give people a chance and work very hard to foster a fun and inclusive locker room. That’s something that I’ve seen you campaigning about as important, and I agree it is as well and should be celebrated.

I don’t say other teams don’t do the exact same thing - foster a rich and fun environment, and I know several do because I hear good things about them from alumni, or know the team leaders. I am talking from the perspective that I know, and clearly it’s ruffling feathers stating not all SMJHL team leadership is the same.

***HabsFanFromOntario*** · 07-14-2023, 02:11 AM

I have great love for South and Toejam and think some of the response has gone a bit too far from people who are understandably upset at how the situation goes down.

That said, the player can stay in your LR if you bring them to activity, but giving them the chance to play or making moves so all the players can play suits a developmental league more than benching players for their rookie seasons or holding on to semi actives. Yes it shows a great LR and culture that they want to stay but you can foster their growth in your locker room regardless of which team they're on. Sitting isn't fun, even if it's "short term sacrifice for long term gain" type concept. A j career is four seasons and losing 1/2 of one to riding pine just seems kinda shitty, especially in a league focused on development. There are plenty of teams who passed up on players due to not finding them a spot because they understood this to be a fundamental part of the SMJHL which they're now codifying. Yes, southpaw and toejam have done a great job but in this particular instance it's okay to say they were in the wrong without taking away from their effort and excellent work.

***RAmenAmen*** · 07-14-2023, 02:16 AM

As spicy of a thread as this is, my two cents here:

1. One player in question who ended up on Maine was a waiver claim I tried and failed to get, and I'm disappointed the (imo) well-intentioned but flawed waiver system sent the player to a full team instead of a team with inactives I'd rather jettison to give an active a chance.
2. The Maine GMs have done an outstanding job of cultivating activity in their locker room, and should be commended for being able to get a team into this position in the first place, as well as run that team to a cup win.

This is a good rule change that I fully support, and I don't think anyone here is claiming that what Maine did was malicious or even wrong given the rules at the time and the communication with their players. It's just something that we as a development league are better off preventing in order to give our players ice time over inactives and keep every team as active as we can within the rules.

***SouthPaw*** · 07-14-2023, 07:32 AM

Hello all, I normally don't like to come on threads here but since this is something directly relates to me and my organization I figured it would be best for all of us if I got in here addressed a few things. I first off want to start by apologizing to everyone that has encountered issues through this entire process and also to all of my fellow GMs and individuals down here in the SMJHL about the situation. I am thankful for your kind words and I have the utmost respect for every organization down here. Everyone is correct in understanding that this was not done maliciously or with any intent to tarnish what the goal of the SMJHL is for any of our players or potential actives of this site and I do feel that everyone that has spoken up at least sees that point and for that I really am happy and am glad that people do not see in general ill will that was done from this. Our priority in Maine has always been to provide all users every tool, resource, and really anything else they needed to get the most out of their player and to find enjoyment in the site. I think we can all agree that our hope down here in the SMJHL is to foster retention and to continue to build great users that are happy. So I think we all need to remember that we are all on the same team in that regard and sometimes differing opinions in how to achieve the SMJHL goal is not a bad thing and that it should not lead to people going after each other in any capacity. I do also want to add that Maine was not playing inactives over actives on our bench, everyone on our roster I have spoken with and/or hung out with us throughout the playoff run. We did not play an inactive over any of our actives as the people who might be in question that were IA one was watching the cup final with us in the LR and the other was dealing with other situations so has not been able to post like normal, so I do want that statement at least to be known that we played actives over actives and not inactives over actives. I understand that there was probably a better way for MET to handle things but our number one concern was to make sure that our players were happy and that is what we will continue to do. I wanted everyone to know that MET's stance was not to be against the spirit of the SMJHL but, to make sure that as I said before our players had everything they wanted or needed from us and were in fact happy. Which yes I understand they could've gotten that elsewhere with any of our great GMs down here and I look forward to continue working with all of them to make sure we find appropriate places for all users to thrive. I would just like to end by asking everyone to remember we are all on the same team and we are all working towards the same goal throughout this league and I want to encourage everyone in future disagreements and discussions to reach out and hold discussions with things like that in mind. There were definitely some Maine players that were targeted by malicious moments from all this and it has put some of us on the defensive and for that I am saddened by but, passion brings forth all sorts of things in us and I just hope we can all move forward and continue to bring a great experience to every single user possible down here in the SMJHL. Thank you all and if anyone needs or wants to chat my DMs are always open.

Gooney · 07-14-2023, 07:45 AM

07-14-2023, 12:43 AMboom Wrote: The point is that you can’t say other teams wouldn’t be able to properly onboard players when they don’t have the rights to said players because y’all do and aren’t using them. How is that supposed to be read any other way than taking potshots at them?

i think this conversation is better suited for dms please.

Samsung virtual assistant · 07-14-2023, 09:15 AM

Me when i come into a thread and like 25% of the posts are ignore listed lmao

[Image: giphy.gif]

I bet there were great discussions being made, be well

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