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baz · 11-24-2023, 04:57 PM

Dear Grader my first reply is apart of this character count sucks (also first gen media bonus pls?)

Hello SHL and SMJHL people! If you do not know me my name is baz and I made this little article here about the history of the SMJHL. Now this is not the full history of the SMJHL, as the index isn’t fun to read before season 52 haha and that would be a much longer article which if you would want to see just let me know and I may do it for my next article. With that lets get into the basics. When looking at the teams we have 14 SMJHL teams, 10 of which that existed from season 53 to now and four of which joined later. This would be longer but character count got me...

The original 10 teams are the Detroit Falcons, Kelowna Knights, Anchorage Armada, Carolina Kraken, Maine Timber, Vancouver Whalers, Colorado Raptors, Newfoundland Berserkers, St. Louis Scarecrows and Anaheim Outlaws (Yukon Malamutes). The teams added in the season 55 expansion were the 55 battlehorns (Nevada Battleborn) and the someone else (Quebec City Citadelles). Then in season 61 we see the addition of the Great Falls Grizzlies and Regina Elk.

There are some stats I did averages for which were Wins, Losses, OT/L (Overtime Losses), W/L Ratio, Goals for and Goals Against. The rest were sums for each team so teams like Regina and Great Falls fall behind in some of the sum categories.

Let's start by looking at the wins on average a season.

Newfoundland Berserkers - 37.71 Wins Per Season
Quebec City Citadelles - 34.53 Wins Per Season
Maine Timber - 34.14 Wins per Season
Nevada Battleborn - 33.58 Wins Per Season
Colorado Raptors - 32.90 Wins Per Season
Anchorage Armada - 31.86 Wins Per Season
Carolina Kraken - 31.62 Wins Per Season
Detroit Falcons - 31.14 Wins Per Season
Vancouver Whalers - 30.81 Wins Per Season
Regina Elk - 30.62 Wins Per Season
Kelowna Knights - 30.19 Wins Per Season
Yukon Malamutes - 29.81 Wins Per Season
Great Falls Grizzlies - 28.38 Wins Per Season
St. Louis Scarecrows - 25.48 Wins Per Season

When looking at the league average over the seasons, the league average wins per season was 31.63 which puts 6 teams currently above the average wins per season with one team on the cusp being the Carolina Kraken. The two noticeable teams on this list are the Scarecrows and the Berserkers. The Berserkers have had very dominant with 11 total seasons over 40 wins which is easily the largest amount and with their most wins in a season being 58, with a 57 and 56 tagged onto that. The Scarecrows however have been a tad unlucky despite finding success in recent seasons, they have had 8 seasons with 20 or under wins. The most wins in a season was the Detroit Falcons with 59 wins in season 65 and the least wins was also the Detroit Falcons with 5 wins in season 62.

Now let us look at the average losses of teams this does not include overtime losses. When ranking teams by the least number of losses on average per season, it goes

Newfoundland Berserkers - 21.19 Losses Per Season
Maine Timer - 25.19 Losses Per Season
Colorado Raptors - 25.38 Losses Per Season
Quebec City Citadelles - 25.79 Losses Per Season
Nevada Battleborn - 26.37 Losses Per Season
Anchorage Armada - 26.81 Losses Per Season
Carolina Kraken - 27.29 Losses Per Season
Detroit Falcons - 27.57 Losses Per Season
Kelowna Knights - 27.71 Losses Per Season
Vancouver Whalers - 28.19 Losses Per Season
Yukon Malamutes - 29.24 Losses Per Season
Regina Elk - 30.31 Losses Per Season
St. Louis Scarecrows - 33.00 Losses Per Season
Great Falls Grizzlies - 34.46 Losses Per Season

When looking at the average per season we see an average of 27.75 Losses Per Season so 9 teams are currently doing better than that is a great number! There were not many changes in regards to the comparisons of wins and losses unfortunately the Grizzlies are last in this category.

Now we move on to Overtime Losses and I like to think of this as who was the most unlucky team! We have a shocking change at the top!

Great Falls Grizzlies - 3.15 Overtime Losses Per Season
Maine Timber - 3.62 Overtime Losses Per Season
Yukon Malamute - 3.90 Overtime Losses Per Season
Vancouver Whalers - 3.95 Overtime Losses Per Season
Quebec City Citadelles - 4.00 Overtime Losses Per Season
Carolina Kraken - 4.05 Overtime Losses Per Season
Newfoundland Berserkers - 4.05 Overtime Losses Per Season
Detroit Falcons - 4.24 Overtime Losses Per Season
Anchorage Armada - 4.29 Overtime Losses Per Season
Nevada Battleborn - 4.37 Overtime Losses Per Season
St. Louis Scarecrows - 4.49 Overtime Losses Per Season
Colorado Raptors - 4.67 Overtime Losses Per Season
Regina Elk - 5.00 Overtime Losses Per Season
Kelowna Knights - 5.05 Overtime Losses Per Season

The league average was 4.20 Overtime Losses Per Season good job SMJHL, this puts 7 teams doing better than the league average. The standout is the Grizzlies who average 3.15 Overtime Losses A season which is a great stat line for them as the other expansion team sits at 5.00 OT Losses Per Season. No team has had double overtime losses yet, the most is 9 by multiple teams.

Now lets skip over win loss ratio as it will be a lot of the same info and lets skip to Goals for and Goals Against Per Season! Goals for rankings are as follows

Newfoundland Berserkers - 233.52 Goals For Per Season
Quebec City Citadelles - 224.84 Goals For Per Season
Nevada Battleborn - 222.21 Goals For Per Season
Maine Timber - 217.14 Goals For Per Season
Colorado Raptors - 216.38 Goals For Per Season
Regina Elk - 213 Goals For Per Season
Detroit Falcons - 208.33 Goals For Per Season
Carolina Kraken - 206.38 Goals For Per Season
Vancouver Whalers - 203.38 Goals For Per Season
Anchorage Armada - 200.38 Goals For Per Season
Great Falls Grizzlies - 199.15 Goals For Per Season
Yukon Malamutes - 194.90 Goals For Per Season
Kelowna Knights - 191.81 Goals For Per Season
St. Louis Scarecrows - 181.90 Goals For Per Season

This one is pretty close to what the win rankings per season looks like but there is one key standout imo! The Regina Elk have a wonderful 213 Goals Per Season despite being ranked 10th in wins per season on average. Regina is a very efficient team on offense so its a bit curious how they fall so much. This gives the Regina Elk a fair boost in their overall history despite the past rankings. Something that should definitely be noted though is teams 2 and 3 are both expansion teams! It is wonderful to see expansion teams doing well especially when it can be tough to start out with an expansion team. Both of the teams continue to be towards top of the rankings in multiple categories. Then Newfoundland continues their dominance with their 3rd 1st ranking. The most goals in a season is held by the Maine Timber with 340 goals in season 72. The fewest goals in a season is held by the Vancouver Whalers in Season 54 with only 84 goals.

Moving on to Goals Against! What teams tend to be the best defensively!

Newfoundland Berserkers - 181.33 Goals Allowed Per Season
Maine Timber - 194.86 Goals Allowed Per Season
Anchorage Armada - 202.05 Goals Allowed Per Season
Kelowna Knights - 203.43 Goals Allowed Per Season
Detroit Falcons - 203.95 Goals Allowed Per Season
Vancouver Whalers - 207.62 Goals Allowed Per Season
Colorado Raptors - 207.86 Goals Allowed Per Season
Quebec City Citadelles - 208.95 Goals Allowed Per Season
Yukon Malamutes - 210.33 Goals Allowed Per Season
Carolina Kraken - 211.05 Goals Allowed Per Season
Nevada Battleborn - 211.58 Goals Allowed Per Season
Regina Elk - 225 Goals Allowed Per Season
St. Louis Scarecrows - 227.05 Goals Allowed Per Season
Great Falls Grizzlies - 237.46 Goals Allowed Per Season

Wow can everyone guess who got first again… yeah its Newfoundland by a good amount but the Maine Timber also have a very close statline in this case to them. Some surprising ones here with the Battleborn at 11 being the main one. They seem to be a very offensive first team lets worry about defense after haha.

Next lets move to point differential! This was by far my favorite one, this is point differential over all 21 seasons.

Newfoundland Berserkers - +1096
Maine Timber - +468
Quebec City Citadelles - +302
Nevada Battleborn - +202
Colorado Raptors - +179
Detroit Falcons - +92
Anchorage Armada - -35
Vancouver Whalers - -89
Carolina Kraken - -98
Regina Elk - -156
Kelowna Knights - -244
Yukon Malamutes - -324
Great Falls Grizzlies - -498
St. Louis Scarecrows - -948

These point differentials are pretty scattered with the closest team to being even is the Armada which they could easily get to next season. Anyways as always there are two main outliers being the Berserkers and the Scarecrows, to anyones surprise? No, probably not. The true standouts are the Battleborn and Citadelles ranked 3rd and 4th again despite being an expansion team.

Now lets move on to record at home since 51. First we will start with wins then losses then over time losses.

Newfoundland Berserkers - 438 Wins
Maine Timber - 398 Wins
Quebec City Citadelles - 386 Wins
Colorado Raptors - 380 Wins
Anchorage Armada - 368 Wins
Vancouver Whalers - 367 Wins
Nevada Battleborn - 367 Wins
Carolina Kraken - 366 Wins
Detroit Falcons - 363 Wins
Kelowna Knights - 361 Wins
Yukon Malamutes - 358 Wins
St. Louis Scarecrows - 300 Wins
Great Falls Grizzlies - 218 Wins
Regina Elk - 217 Wins

Home Losses

Regina Elk - 172 Losses
Newfoundland Berserkers - 188 Losses
Great Falls Grizzlies - 190 Losses
Quebec City Citadelles - 191 Losses
Nevada Battleborn - 203 Losses
Maine Timber - 224 Losses
Colorado Raptors - 232 Losses
Kelowna Knights - 240 Losses
Anchorage Armada - 248 Losses
Carolina Kraken - 250 Losses
Vancouver Whalers - 258 Losses
Yukon Malamutes - 261 Losses
Detroit Falcons - 267 Losses
St. Louis Scarecrows - 319 Losses

Overtime Losses are next!

Great Falls Grizzlies - 21 OT Losses
Detroit Falcons - 31 OT Losses
Quebec City Citadelles - 34 OT Losses
Newfoundland Berserkers - 35 OT Losses
Vancouver Whalers - 36 OT Losses
Maine Timber - 39 OT Losses
Regina Elk - 40 OT Losses
Nevada Battleborn - 41 OT Losses
St. Louis Scarecrows - 42 OT Losses
Yukon Malamutes - 42 OT Losses
Anchorage Armada - 44 OT Losses
Carolina Kraken - 45 OT Losses
Colorado Raptors - 49 OT Losses
Kelowna Knights - 60 OT Losses

Looking at these we can tell the strongest teams at home are easily the Berserkers and Timber, with the Citadelles/Raptors close behind. The worst team at home has to be the Scarecrows with a combined record of 300-319-42. The unluckiest team at home has to be the Kelowna Knights, having 60 overtime losses is insane and is the biggest gap in this particular list unfortunately. Anyways onto what the best teams away are.

Away Wins

Newfoundland Berserkers - 354 Wins
Maine Timber - 319 Wins
Colorado Raptors - 311 Wins
Anchorage Armada - 301 Wins
Detroit Falcons - 291 Wins
Vancouver Whalers - 280 Wins
Carolina Kraken - 278 Wins
Kelowna Knights - 273 Wins
Nevada Battleborn - 271 Wins
Quebec City Citadelles - 270 Wins
Yukon Malamutes - 268 Wins
St. Louis Scarecrows - 235 Wins
Regina Elk - 181 Wins
Great Falls Grizzlies - 151 Wins

Away Losses

Regina Elk - 222 Losses
Newfoundland Berserkers - 257 Losses
Great Falls Grizzlies - 258 Losses
Nevada Battleborn - 298 Losses
Quebec City Citadelles - 299 Losses
Colorado Raptors - 301 Losses
Maine Timber - 305 Losses
Detroit Falcons - 312 Losses
Anchorage Armada - 315 Losses
Carolina Kraken - 323 Losses
Vancouver Whalers - 334 Losses
Kelowna Knights - 342 Losses
Yukon Malamutes - 353 Losses
St. Louis Scarecrows - 374 Losses

Away Overtime Losses

Great Falls Grizzlies - 20 OT Losses
Regina Elk - 26 OT Losses
Maine Timber - 37 OT Losses
Carolina Kraken - 40 OT Losses
Yukon Malamutes - 40 OT Losses
Nevada Battleborn - 42 OT Losses
Quebec City Citadelles - 42 OT Losses
Anchorage Armada - 45 OT Losses
Vancouver Whalers - 45 OT Losses
Kelowna Knights - 46 OT Losses
Colorado Raptors - 49 OT Losses
Newfoundland Berserkers - 50 OT Losses
St. Louis Scarecrows - 52 OT Losses
Detroit Falcons - 58 OT Losses

Now lets figure who the best team away is! If we want to go by pure wins and losses its newfoundland again and in that case we may need to ask which SHL team do we need to relegate and move Newfoundland into their spot. I need to know if this has ever been considered lmfao. Though thinking more about it the best team away is most likely Maine (outside of Newfoundland)! Maine has a wonderful win loss at 319-305-37 and is one of only 3 teams with more wins than losses away, not counting OT losses, if we count OT Losses its only Newfoundland god damn it. WHY IS NEWFOUNDLAND SO GOOD, though this is also Newfoundlands first time being in the bottom half of a ranking.

[Image: Screenshot_2023-11-24_at_3.49.12_PM.png?...height=522]

[Image: Screenshot_2023-11-24_at_3.49.12_PM.png?...height=522]

Now lets move onto who is the best at shootouts, starting out with shootout wins

Yukon Malamutes - 64 Shootout Wins
Vancouver Whalers - 57 Shootout Wins
Colorado Raptors - 55 Shootout Wins
St. Louis Scarecrows - 55 Shootout Wins
Nevada Battleborn - 54 Shootout Wins
Maine Timber - 53 Shootout Wins
Carolina Kraken - 51 Shootout Wins
Kelowna Knights - 50 Shootout Wins
Anchorage Armada - 49 Shootout Wins
Quebe City - 47 Shootout Wins
Newfoundland - 42 Shootout Wins
Detroit Falcons - 40 Shootout Wins
Regina Elk - 37 Shootout Wins
Great Falls Grizzlies - 33 Shootout Wins

Now Shootout Losses

Great Falls Grizzlies - 24 Shootout Losses
Regina Elk - 37 Shootout Losses
Quebec City - 42 Shootout Losses
Maine Timber - 45 Shootout Losses
Newfoundland Berserkers - 49 Shootout Losses
Anchorage Armada - 50 Shootout Losses
St. Louis Scarecrows - 51 Shootout Losses
Nevada Battleborn - 52 Shootout Losses
Yukon Malamutes - 53 Shootout Losses
Anaheim - 53 Shootout Losses
Carolina Kraken - 54 Shootout Losses
Detroit Falcons - 54 Shootout Losses
Colorado Raptors - 60 Shootout Losses
Kelowna Knights - 65 Shootout Losses

So looking at shootout losses there is a clear winner of who is the most dominant in this category being the Yukon Malamutes with a 64-53 record in shootouts! However some teams like the Grizzlies and the Timber are close behind and could pass them in the following seasons. The worst team when it comes to shootout is the Kelowna Knights unfortunately with a 50-65 record in shootouts but the Detroit Falcons are close behind with a 40-54 record!
When looking at the best regular season team I think we see a clear winner in the Newfoundland Berserkers they are a dominant team who scores a lot of points and an opponent that teams have definitely feared for many seasons. If I had to rank teams in the regular season these would be the rankings

Newfoundland Berserkers
Maine Timber
Quebec City Citadelles
Nevada Battleborn
Colorado Raptors
Anchorage Armada
Carolina Kraken
Regina Elk
Kelowna Knights
Detroit Falcons
Vancouver Whalers
Yukon Malamutes
Great Falls Grizzlies
St. Louis Scarecrows

Now you think the article ends there? It does not I have playoff success as well!

Games Won

Newfoundland Berserkers - 176 Playoff Wins
Quebec City Citadelles - 121 Playoff Wins
Maine Timber - 119 Playoff Wins
Anchorage Armada - 105 Playoff Wins
Yukon Malamutes - 103 Playoff Wins
Kelowna Knights - 85 Playoff Wins
St. Louis Scarecrows - 84 Playoff Wins
Carolina Kraken - 82 Playoff Wins
Vancouver Whaler - 79 Playoff Wins
Detroit Falcons - 79 Playoff Wins
Nevada Battleborn - 78 Playoff WIns
Colorado Raptors 55 Playoff Wins
Great Falls Grizzlies - 33 Playoff Wins
Regina Elk - 29 Playoff Wins

Games Lost

Regina Elk - 49 Playoff Losses
Great Falls Grizzlies - 51 Playoff Losses
Vancouver Whalers - 75 Playoff Losses
Nevada Battleborn - 78 Playoff Losses
Detroit Falcons - 87 Playoff Losses
Kelowna Knights - 88 Playoff Losses
Colorado Raptors - 90 Playoff Losses
Carolina Kraken - 91 Playoff Losses
Anchorage Armada - 93 Playoff Losses
St. Louis Scarecrows - 95 Playoff Losses
Maine Timber - 103 Playoff Losses
Quebec City Citadelles - 107 Playoff Losses
Newfoundland Berserkers - 108 Playoff Losses
Yukon Malamutes - 112 Playoff Losses

Playoff Series Wins

Newfoundland Berserkers - 38 Series Wins
Maine Timber - 25 Series Wins
Quebec City Citadelles - 24 Series Wins
Detroit Falcons - 17 Series Wins
Anchorage Armada - 17 Series Wins
Yukon Malamutes - 16 Series Wins
Vancouver Whalers - 15 Series Wins
Kelowna Knights - 13 Series Wins
Carolina Kraken - 13 Series Wins
Nevada Battleborn - 12 Series Wins
St. Louis Scarecrows - 12 Series Wins
Colorado Raptors - 8 Series Wins
Great Falls Grizzlies - 5 Series Wins
Regina Elk - 3 Series Wins

Championships

Newfoundland Berserkers - 6 Championships
Maine Timber - 3 Championships
Detroit Falcons - 3 Championships
Quebec City Citadelles - 2 Championships
Vancouver Whalers - 2 Championships
Anchorage Armada - 1 Championship
Kelowna Knights - 1 Championship
Carolina Kraken - 1 Championship
Nevada Battleborn - 1 Championship
St. Louis Scarecrows - 1 Championship
Yukon Malamutes - 0 Championship
Colorado Raptors - 0 Championship
Great Falls Grizzlies - 0 Championship
Regina Elk - 0 Championship

Well everyone guess who the best playoff team is… with a 176-108 record it is none other than the Newfoundland Berserkers again… Tho Maine and Quebec City are also quite good, Newfoundland just finds themselves in a different tier. Some teams that have not been as lucky in the playoffs are the Raptors with a 55-90 record in playoffs and then the Battleborn who have been very good in the regular season but only find themselves with a 78-78 record in playoffs.

Ranking teams in the playoffs it goes

Newfoundland Berserkers
Maine Timber
Quebec CIty Citadelles
Detroit Falcons
Anchorage Armada
Vancouver Whalers
Kelowna Knights
Nevada Battleborn
Carolina Kraken
Yukon Malamutes
St. Louis Scarecrows
Great Falls Grizzlies
Colorado Raptors
Regina Elk

[Image: Screenshot_2023-11-24_at_3.48.07_PM.png?...height=770]

When looking at all of this combined its great to see expansion teams like Quebec and Nevada seeing success while it may not be immediate for Great Falls and Regina we hope that does change soon. Overall this was a really fun article to write as it shows highlights of each and every team and what the future may hold. Undisputedly the best team in the past 21 seasons has been the Berserkers but teams like the Timber are quickly on the rise and look to challenge them!

baz · 11-24-2023, 04:58 PM

Ranking the teams as a whole ONLY FROM SEASON 53 TO NOW

Newfoundland Berserkers have been the best team in the regular season and have dominated the playoffs for many seasons. They have 600 more points in point differential than the next closest team.
Maine Timber, the Maine Timber have seen a lot of success with 3 very recent championships and they are improving every season. They very well could have won more than 3. They seem to be the next team that could be up to fight with the Berserkers
Quebec City Citadelles, the Citadelles, I cant believe I called them someone else in rookie chat and then the GM saw talk about awkward. They are anything but someone else though with the third highest win % in regular season and with 2 championships already this team is amazing.
Detroit Falcons, the Falcons may not be the best wins team in regular season but they get work done in the playoffs with 3 championships and one of only 6 teams with a positive point differential
Colorado Raptors before the post season, Now I am actually separating Colorado post season and colorado regular season as for some reason they seem to perform like two fully separate teams. The colorado Raptors in the regular season are a championship caliber team through and through
Nevada Battleborn, The Battleborn! These guys are doing phenomenal in the regular season over and over again. As Aleris told me he is forever doomed to pick #10 which is sad but they are still killing it nonetheless!
Anchorage Armada, the Armada are a team who in the regular season look really good and are the closest team in negative to a positive point differential. They have playoff success as well fitting them right here at 7.
Vancouver Whalers, the Whalers finally make it to this list and the only reason I can site for them falling is every other team has been better in regular season and has a good amount of accomplishments in post. Vancouver could move up a few spots to 6 but I like them here at 8.
Carolina Kraken, the Kraken are one of those teams who finds themselves in the middle of regular season often but they do have a championship tacked on so, i guess 9 works.
Kelowna Knights, Knights are one of the last two teams with a championship in this period and with them performing much better than the other they stay in the top 10.
Regina Elk, probably the best team in regular season without a championship outside of Colorado but being a new team we cant expect any of their numbers to be too high in some of these categories.
Yukon Malamutes, the Malamutes are the best playoff team left with 16 series wins and 103 playoff game wins but no championship. I do think their Anaheim days drag them down quite a bit but it does suck.
Great Falls Grizzlies, the other expansion team and has seen a bit less regular season success compared to the Elk but have been better in playoffs so between the two teams its a tossup
St. Louis Scarecrows, they have been awful in the regular season and have the worst point differential by a mile. They should be fifteenth but somehow someone is worse, St. Louis does have a championship at least?
Colorado Raptors in the playoffs… need i say more?

Now lets get into some fun facts!

The only championship team since 51 to win every single game in their championship run without dropping a game is the Nevada Battleborn in Season 66!
Newfoundland had a positive Point Differential in 16 out of 21 seasons
Anaheim rebranded to Yukon after Season 64, their average games won as Anaheim was 26.91 and as Yukon their average games won was 33.67
Only 4 teams have had a season with 0 OT Losses, those teams are Vancouver, Quebec City, Great Falls and Maine
The most shootout losses in a season belongs to Colorado with 8 losses in both seasons 64 and 68
The most shootout wins in a season also belongs to Colorado with 9 in season 59

***luke*** · 11-24-2023, 05:19 PM

nice read! Hopefully vancouver can do better @aleks

Did you scrape it through python?

baz · 11-24-2023, 05:31 PM

11-24-2023, 05:19 PMluke Wrote: nice read! Hopefully vancouver can do better @aleks

Did you scrape it through python?

Probably should have but did not!

***luke*** · 11-24-2023, 05:33 PM

11-24-2023, 05:31 PMbaz Wrote: Probably should have but did not!

Great work nevertheless. Good luck at the draft tomorrow!

***aleks*** · 11-24-2023, 06:05 PM

11-24-2023, 05:19 PMluke Wrote: nice read! Hopefully vancouver can do better @aleks

Did you scrape it through python?

its a lost cause i dont have the talent

*Fluw* · 11-24-2023, 08:14 PM

Feelsbad Anaheim was included in the Yukon totals, but I get it, our history only goes back to season 65.

baz · 11-24-2023, 08:31 PM

11-24-2023, 08:14 PMFluw Wrote: Feelsbad Anaheim was included in the Yukon totals, but I get it, our history only goes back to season 65.

Yukon is much better than Anaheim but I realized like halfway thru collecting yall rebranded and I was like Im just going to leave at that. I can give u the stats for Yukon only if u are interested I have stats for every season from 53 to now on a separate excel table from all of this. Or maybe I can make another article about Anaheim to Yukon hm.

*Fluw* · 11-24-2023, 09:30 PM

11-24-2023, 08:31 PMbaz Wrote: Yukon is much better than Anaheim but I realized like halfway thru collecting yall rebranded and I was like Im just going to leave at that. I can give u the stats for Yukon only if u are interested I have stats for every season from 53 to now on a separate excel table from all of this. Or maybe I can make another article about Anaheim to Yukon hm.

Lmao all good, I'm not torn up about it! Just decided to reply, because I swear I am better than Anaheim!! Great Article!

***By-Tor*** · 11-25-2023, 01:24 AM

Caw caw?

Credit to enigmatic, Merica, and tweedledunn for sigs

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