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ArGarBarGar · 06-16-2017, 10:18 AM

Going to close #2 out unless we get a bunch of votes by this afternoon. Seems like a pretty easy vote for #2.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
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**RomanesEuntDomus** · 06-16-2017, 10:29 AM

McKeil so underrated...

ArGarBarGar · 06-16-2017, 12:03 PM

Quote:Originally posted by RomanesEuntDomus@Jun 16 2017, 09:29 AM
McKeil so underrated...

I don't know, Partlow had a 10 year stretch where he was considered top-3 among defensemen. Despite McKeil's longevity I think that kind of dominance has to account for something. Especially considering he had another top-tier defender in Scherbluk right up against him and still won three Stevens Trophies.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
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JumpierPegasus · 06-16-2017, 12:05 PM

Quote:Originally posted by RomanesEuntDomus@Jun 16 2017, 06:29 AM
McKeil so underrated...

McKeil is my number 3 but to be fair, there was nothing that popped about him. Ron Mexico was a prolific scorer, one of the most dominate offensive players in his era that we've seen (Armia comes close, but he lacked longetivity), and Partlow is the best defender of all time, his stats are amazing

McKeil was an incredible two-way forward, but he just didn't have the "wow" factor the other two had

EDIT: I forgot I drafted McKeil in juniors :o and then made him PGF GM after I stepped down

ArGarBarGar · 06-16-2017, 12:26 PM

The voting is in, and we have our #2 skater and goaltender!

Congrats to Chris Partlow and John McBride!

Added to the list are Sarmad Khan and Mike Honcho!

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
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~~GroupMeIsKindOfOkay~~ · 06-16-2017, 12:29 PM

Skater #3: Joe McKeil

Goaltender #3: Lauris Prikulis

Skater+Goaltender to be added for Poll #4: Taylor McDavid/Ryan Jesster

ArGarBarGar · 06-16-2017, 12:34 PM

What's the appeal for Reggie Williams? Is it the 5 cups?

I would consider Taylor McDavid over Williams, honestly. Or probably O'Callahan considering he was the modern equivalent of "Beast Mode" in his prime.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
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~~GroupMeIsKindOfOkay~~ · 06-16-2017, 12:36 PM

Quote:Originally posted by ArGarBarGar@Jun 16 2017, 11:34 AM
What's the appeal for Reggie Williams? Is it the 5 cups?

I would consider Taylor McDavid over Williams, honestly. Or probably O'Callahan considering he was the modern equivalent of "Beast Mode" in his prime.

He was probably the best two-way player of his generation.
Hallsy might be a better choice now that I think about it, but I'd for sure put Williams over O'Callahan

Actually shit...I didn't realize O'Callahan was nominated for Mexico 3x lol

JumpierPegasus · 06-16-2017, 12:47 PM

Skater #3: Joe McKeil

Goaltender #3: Lauris Prikulis

Skater+Goaltender to be added for Poll #4: Carter O'Callahan/Ryan Jesster

btw Zach Miller in the list of accomplished players misses his two Razov nominations :o

ArGarBarGar · 06-16-2017, 12:50 PM

Quote:Originally posted by JumpierPegasus@Jun 16 2017, 11:47 AM
Skater #3: Joe McKeil

Goaltender #3: Lauris Prikulis

Skater+Goaltender to be added for Poll #4: Carter O'Callahan/Ryan Jesster

btw Zach Miller in the list of accomplished players misses his two Razov nominations :o

What seasons?

EDIT: Nevermind, I remember I don't include Razov nominations because they aren't done in the NHL. Considering the pool of players is so small compared to the entire league nominations seem like unnecessary additions.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
[Image: IeEV7Iv.png]

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 06-16-2017, 12:57 PM

You guys are really underrating how good McKeil was during his peak imho. His super long career length and the fact that he fizzled out towards the end and was rather quiet seem to suggest that longetivity was all he's got, but that's really not the case. The first two-thirds of his career where simply insane, a combination of consistency and peak performance that hasn't been reached before or since. Over his first sixteen (! Wink

seasons in the league, McKeil scored 40 or more points 14 out of 16 times, and the two times he didn't he came awfully close at 38 and 39. This includes a stretch between S18 and S21 where he scored 59, 61, 60 and 57 points and also broke the 30 goal mark, while also being a fantastic two-way player. Maybe it's tough to put these numbers into perspective if we look at them from the new inflation era that we seem to have entered, but those were numbers barely ever reached around then. People didn't break 60 points or 30 goals nearly as often as they do nowadays. Did I mention that he also was fantastic at faceoffs? And then there is the whole "All Time Leading Scorer" thing...

Partlow had a great career as well but I don't think he dominated defenders nearly as much as you make it sound. It was always fascniating to see him battle it out with the likes of Scherbluk, Weber or sometimes Velevra, but often times there was no clear winner and at the end of the day Scherbluk ended up outscoring Partlow by over 100 points. Partlow also never was a great defensive defenseman, he was good but he was an offensive-minded blueliner first and foremost, and for a guy like that he didn't dominate his peers nearly enough to be in the conversation for best player ever for me. He certainly didn't have more consistency or a constant edge over his peers. Scherbluk wasn't quite as good as Partlow, but had more longetivity. Weber wasn't as consistent but ended up with almost twice as many hits as Partlow, while scoring roughly the same amount of points. These three guys, Partlow, Scherbluk and Weber, were basically on the same level for most of their careers, Partlow ended up being the best of the three but he never really managed to set himself apart from them either and he also had the shortest career of those guys. But if you look at McKeil, was there anyone who could even remotely keep up with him for those 15 seasons or so where he was great? O'Callahan is on the same level performance wise but he was only up there for about half as long as McKeil (8 seasons). McZ was great, but again wasn't near the top as long but also didn't have McKeil's two-way-play. I'd argue that the only guy who comes close in terms of consistency and longetivity is myself, David Winter, and McKeil clearly had the better peak performances. Maybe I'm forgetting someone (McDavid has a case too) but those are the guys I can think off of the top off my head that were somewhat close to McK during his era. And he set himself apart from all of them considerably, more than Partlow did compared to Scherbluk and Weber.

I don't want to be too negative about Partlow, this isn't about him and he obviously was a great player and is in my top-5. I just think it's kinda sad that people already seem to be forgetting about McKeil and the truly amazing career he has had. He already seems to be significantly underrated, he doesn't necessarily have to be the #1 or #2 in this voting but the fact that he wasn't even really in the conversation for any of these two spots is just wrong if you ask me.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 06-16-2017, 01:00 PM

Skater #3: Joe McKeil

Goaltender #3: Lauris Prikulis

Skater+Goaltender to be added for Poll #4: Carter O'Callahan / Brandon Sawyer

ArGarBarGar · 06-16-2017, 01:02 PM

You do have to keep in mind the fact that Scherbluk "cheated" his way through the earlier parts of his regression, allowing him to be better for longer.

As far as competing with others, Partlow had as more Stevens nominations (not including wins) than both Weber and Scherbluk had combined. McKeil had a longer prime, but Partlow had a longer peak if you ask me.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
[Image: IeEV7Iv.png]

JumpierPegasus · 06-16-2017, 01:07 PM

Quote:Originally posted by ArGarBarGar@Jun 16 2017, 08:50 AM

What seasons?

EDIT: Nevermind, I remember I don't include Razov nominations because they aren't done in the NHL. Considering the pool of players is so small compared to the entire league nominations seem like unnecessary additions.

ooh, makes total sense. It's really all I have though so I get sad when I don't see it :lol:

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 06-16-2017, 01:18 PM

Quote:Originally posted by ArGarBarGar@Jun 16 2017, 06:02 PM
You do have to keep in mind the fact that Scherbluk "cheated" his way through the earlier parts of his regression, allowing him to be better for longer.

As far as competing with others, Partlow had as more Stevens nominations (not including wins) than both Weber and Scherbluk had [b]combined. McKeil had a longer prime, but Partlow had a longer peak if you ask me.[/b]

I'm not sure if we should take off-ice stuff into account for this, but if we did then that wouldn't exactly make Partlow raise any higher on my list Wink

. And Scherbluk didn't exactly cheat as far as I know, he just took advantage of a loophole that many people used back then, he just was the most extreme example. But I don't remember all the details of that.

The nominations argument is valid, but if you don't count nominations for the forward awards then I have a tough time taking them into account for defensemen. There generally seems to be more turnover in the forward awards anyway, maybe that's just my impression but it feels like over the course of a generation, there are often the same 5-6 defenseman who always contend for the Stevens nominations every year, whereas there is a lot more change in the forward ranks, where people rise or drop out of the top-group way more frequently. That's why for me, Stevens nominations aren't that big of a deal, especially if, as I said, we don't even count nominations for most forward awards.

I also think that our awards system was deeply flawed basically throughout the first half of this leagues existence, which is why I don't put as much stock into awards in general. But that's a whole different topic...

Lastly, I firmly believe that career length should count for something. For many people, longetivity almost seems to be a negative in these discussions nowadays, which I strongly disagree with. The argument often seems to be "Player xy was able to do so much in just 10 seasons while that other guy got his accomplishments over 20 seasons, so the guy with the shorter career must be better. I think that's wrong, longetivity and consistency need to counter for something and a guy who was good for 20 seasons should get some bonus points compared to someone who was only good for 10 seasons and then didn't even bother to try and battle regression.

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