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Durden · 12-14-2017, 12:13 PM

Any reason we have best goalie, best defenseman and 2 way forward but not just..... best forward? I know we'd split hairs and do defensive/offensive defenseman... but it's just weird.

Sleepy · 12-14-2017, 12:14 PM

Dover played majority of his games, like 36 iirc, as a Dman, AND that rule was made after the season was over. I think its kinda bullshit he's not eligible for the Stevens.

Atlas · 12-14-2017, 12:26 PM

Dover did not play the whole season as a defenseman, he didn't finish the season as a defenseman, and should not be eligible for the Stevens including his stats accrued as a forward

Atlas · 12-14-2017, 12:28 PM

If his stats in those 14 or whatever games as an F are ignored for the purposes of Stevens nom / voting, then that makes sense to me

***Ace*** · 12-14-2017, 12:29 PM

My vote goes to <a href='index.php?showuser=2364' rel='nofollow' alt='profile link' class='user-tagged mgroup-3'>iOBESE</a>

Atlas · 12-14-2017, 12:31 PM

Quote:Originally posted by ArGarBarGar@Dec 14 2017, 08:42 AM

Fell back quite a bit?

Finished 2nd among eligible defenders in points while scoring with 10 goals, more hits than Malkin, better plus minus than both, playing 2 1/2 to 3 minutes per game LESS than both Malkin and Rhys (which if the PP/60 was the same would have put me right up there with Malkin in points).

Is that what we consider run of the mill, these days? I'm not going to say I absolutely deserve to win, but I am just as deserving to be a nominee as Malkin and Rhys.

Its like deja vu all over again

***Wally*** · 12-14-2017, 12:40 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Symmetrik@Dec 14 2017, 09:30 AM

It was almost 1/3rd of the season I believe 14 games, and he scored I think 21 points during that time.

For argument sake you can say just over a quarter of the season. Regardless, those 21 points were earned also playing out of position (player attributes docked) and say you take away the 21 points... he still sits at 39 points over 36 games. He would have definitely ADDED to that and the pace he was on at that point still could/would have eclipsed 50 points for the season remaining on defense.

Rhys is going to be one hell of a player but there was nothing extraordinary about this season in comparison to other past winners of the award, but the committee is considerably incorrect by not including Dover at least in a nomination. Over 2/3 of a season as a defenseman... <a href='index.php?showuser=1765' rel='nofollow' alt='profile link' class='user-tagged mgroup-4'>Eggy Nog</a> this was a robbery.

<a href='index.php?showuser=283' rel='nofollow' alt='profile link' class='user-tagged mgroup-13'>ThatDamnMcJesus</a>

Symmetrik · 12-14-2017, 01:10 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Wally@Dec 14 2017, 11:40 AM

For argument sake you can say just over a quarter of the season.  Regardless, those 21 points were earned also playing out of position (player attributes docked) and say you take away the 21 points... he still sits at 39 points over 36 games.  He would have definitely ADDED to that and the pace he was on at that point still could/would have eclipsed 50 points for the season remaining on defense.

Rhys is going to be one hell of a player but there was nothing extraordinary about this season in comparison to other past winners of the award, but the committee is considerably incorrect by not including Dover at least in a nomination.  Over 2/3 of a season as a defenseman... <a href='index.php?showuser=1765' rel='nofollow' alt='profile link' class='user-tagged mgroup-4'>Eggy Nog</a> this was a robbery.

<a href='index.php?showuser=283' rel='nofollow' alt='profile link' class='user-tagged mgroup-13'>ThatDamnMcJesus</a>

You can't based on his pace over 36 games, that's ridiculous. He didn't play the whole season as a defenseman, and so all his numbers are projections, and giving out awards based on projections is stupid. Let me play a rookie 1 game in a season and hope he scores a point or 2 2, SHOE IN for RotY since he scored 2 points in 1 game and at that pace surely he would have been better than anyone else.

Rhys didn't have a great season you know aside from top 10 in defense scoring and more hits & SB than any defenseman with more points. Over 100 in each. Only Malkin hit triple digits in either one.

***Wally*** · 12-14-2017, 02:02 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Symmetrik@Dec 14 2017, 11:10 AM

You can't based on his pace over 36 games, that's ridiculous. He didn't play the whole season as a defenseman, and so all his numbers are projections, and giving out awards based on projections is stupid. Let me play a rookie 1 game in a season and hope he scores a point or 2 2, SHOE IN for RotY since he scored 2 points in 1 game and at that pace surely he would have been better than anyone else.

Rhys didn't have a great season you know aside from top 10 in defense scoring and more hits & SB than any defenseman with more points. Over 100 in each. Only Malkin hit triple digits in either one.

I get you are fighting for your player... I would too. But look at this...

Ben Dover
Thru 36 Games
Goals: 11
Assists: 28
Points: 39
+/-: +1
Hits: 112
Shots Blocked: 68

Zander Rhys
Thru 50 Games
Goals: 7
Assists: 31
Points: 38
+/-: 0
Hits: 105
Shots Blocked: 106

So for comparison here are the 14 games Dover played at forward:
Goals: 13
Assists: 8
Points: 21
+/-: -2
Hits: 49
Shots Blocked: 19

By definition of both the SHL and NHL versions of the award it is awarded to the league's best defenseman. So now 14 games out of position, negates Dover from being a defenseman at all? What is he than... a 14-game forward? You forget about the 36 games he played as a defensemen that, outside of Shot Blocks, out paced Rhys in literally 14 less games?!

What, should Dover be removed as a defenseman as well on the All-Star teams? How does that even make sense... I'm absolutely not saying judge Dover based on a projection. But shit, I would take Dover over Rhys on every puck drop at any position. Don't tell me you or any one else here can't take into account that he was a 1.08 ppg performer, was a +1, had 112 hits and 68 shots blocked all within 36 games. Now all of a sudden, 14 games don't matter. Bogus. No he may not have won the defensive award, but he sure as hell was one of the top 3 defenseman in the league in S37... hands down. He just took it a step further to prove he may have been one of the best all-around players in the league as well.

dizzyDC · 12-14-2017, 02:41 PM

Early congrats to <a href='index.php?showuser=2572' rel='nofollow' alt='profile link' class='user-tagged mgroup-10'>DrunkenTeddy</a> because lets be honest here...

Symmetrik · 12-14-2017, 02:47 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Wally@Dec 14 2017, 01:02 PM

I get you are fighting for your player... I would too.  But look at this...

Ben Dover
[b]Thru 36 Games
Goals: 11
Assists: 28
Points: 39
+/-: +1
Hits: 112
Shots Blocked: 68

Zander Rhys
Thru 50 Games
Goals: 7
Assists: 31
Points: 38
+/-: 0
Hits: 105
Shots Blocked: 106

So for comparison here are the 14 games Dover played at forward:
Goals: 13
Assists: 8
Points: 21
+/-: -2
Hits: 49
Shots Blocked: 19

By definition of both the SHL and NHL versions of the award it is awarded to the league's best defenseman.  So now 14 games out of position, negates Dover from being a defenseman at all?  What is he than... a 14-game forward?  You forget about the 36 games he played as a defensemen that, outside of Shot Blocks, out paced Rhys in literally 14 less games?! 

What, should Dover be removed as a defenseman as well on the All-Star teams?  How does that even make sense... I'm absolutely not saying judge Dover based on a projection.  But shit, I would take Dover over Rhys on every puck drop at any position.  Don't tell me you or any one else here can't take into account that he was a 1.08 ppg performer, was a +1, had 112 hits and 68 shots blocked all within 36 games.  Now all of a sudden, 14 games don't matter.  Bogus.  No he may not have won the defensive award, but he sure as hell was one of the top 3 defenseman in the league in S37... hands down.  He just took it a step further to prove he may have been one of the best all-around players in the league as well.[/b]

These are 2 separate arguments that you're trying to blend into one.

Dover only played 36 games as a defenseman. At what point do you become ineligible for an award based on games played? Let's look at it this way.

Dover should win the 2 way forward award! Look at all those stats 19 shots blocks, 49 hits, he only played 14 games sure but IMAGINE if he played 50! WOW!

It's not a comparison of Rhys and Dover, Dover is ineligible. It's a comparison between Rhys and the other defensemen not named Malkin or Garbanzo. And it's a pretty easy case in my eyes, 100+ hits and 100+ SB, he was easily better than the guys around him.

***Wally*** · 12-14-2017, 02:58 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Symmetrik@Dec 14 2017, 12:47 PM

These are 2 separate arguments that you're trying to blend into one.

Dover only played 36 games as a defenseman. At what point do you become ineligible for an award based on games played? Let's look at it this way.

Dover should win the 2 way forward award! Look at all those stats 19 shots blocks, 49 hits, he only played 14 games sure but IMAGINE if he played 50! WOW!

It's not a comparison of Rhys and Dover, Dover is ineligible. It's a comparison between Rhys and the other defensemen not named Malkin or Garbanzo. And it's a pretty easy case in my eyes, 100+ hits and 100+ SB, he was easily better than the guys around him.

But where does it say he is ineligible? Is there a rule? Or was this just a split decision thing from Eggy because of a rare circumstance. There sure as hell isn't one for the All-Star committee. No this isn't blending two things into one. Hits and Shot Blocks aren't the only things that matter in a defenseman... just as goals and assists aren't either.

Fact is Dover didn't break a leg... and miss the last 14 games of the season. He was still on the ice... still a player of the Steelhawks... still a defenseman playing at a disadvantage from his normal strength as a forward. At the 36 game mark he was one of the best all-around defenseman and at the 50 game mark he was still one of the best all-around defenseman. There isn't an asterisk next to the award saying you must play all 50 games as a d-man.

Flat out... 36 games as a Defenseman and 14 as a Forward. Defense or Forward, you have to choose one... your pick.

r1c3bowl22 · 12-14-2017, 03:07 PM

Awards are supposed to be a happy time. Quit your bickering.

**.bojo** · 12-14-2017, 03:08 PM

back in my day the best defenceman defended goals, not scored them!

r1c3bowl22 · 12-14-2017, 03:09 PM

Quote:Originally posted by Beaujeaux@Dec 14 2017, 02:08 PM
back in my day the best defenceman defended goals, not scored them!

Back in your days, a Jalopski was running around the ice.

Times have changed.

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