08-20-2018, 08:23 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Ugh, I know this is indeed working well in other leagues, but I'm not a fan of implementing this here to be quite honest. Allowing people to get pretty close to maxing out over the course of their careers while basically being able to half-ass things is a massive change to this leagues structure, a bigger one I think than people are realizing. I enjoy leagues like the GOMHL or the SCOR for their more casual feel but the SHL is not that, and it shouldn't be that either. It's the premium product, the one where you have to put in the most work but where in return the results are most rewarding and I think we'd be better served to keep it that way. That doesn't mean that there can't be changes to make lifes easier for the members around here, but for a long time now there have basically been two things in this league that set apart semi-actives and super actives, and that's PTs and Equipment. Damaging the integrity of one of these two foundations without a clear need to is not a good idea imho.
While that was part of the argument against it we ultimately decided that the PTs are really only worth about 18 TPE a season tops. 5-6 PTs at 3 TPE a piece. Since this doesn't count for weekly training, ACs, various other Point Tasks, and CW, then the amount they really get from this isn't as much as one would think. The things that still set the super active apart from the rest will still have to be earned for those who truly want it.
In the end if it ups activity around the site as well as bringing in new members then the pay off of 18 TPE a season is very much worth it.
AC and weekly training require what? 10 minutes a week? Equipment is maybe 5 minutes per season? I don't think you're going to bring people back to the league as actives when it's pretty clear that all you're doing is giving them free TPE for being in a league other than the SHL. If they want an SHL player then they need to do the SHL work. It should be that simple.
5 Minutes per season to purchase it yes but how much work do you actually have to put in to have enough for equipment. It's a lot of time and the ones who buy it will have to put in work. Training as well. Contracts only get you so far especially in a league where everyone takes the minimum to help their team. Jobs and media are required to have a top earner here and that requires a lot more time than 5 minutes a week.
08-20-2018, 09:06 PMTroy_McClure03 Wrote: I'm not sure I fully get it. Does this mean that if I choose to not join those other leagues that I am at a disadvantage?
No you still do your PT here like nothing has changed. If you wish to join those leagues than you can do 1 PT to count for all 3. You'll still do the same amount of work here if you don't join them.
08-20-2018, 08:52 PMTheDangaZone Wrote: While that was part of the argument against it we ultimately decided that the PTs are really only worth about 18 TPE a season tops. 5-6 PTs at 3 TPE a piece. Since this doesn't count for weekly training, ACs, various other Point Tasks, and CW, then the amount they really get from this isn't as much as one would think. The things that still set the super active apart from the rest will still have to be earned for those who truly want it.
In the end if it ups activity around the site as well as bringing in new members then the pay off of 18 TPE a season is very much worth it.
I think you are underestimating the impact that PTs have over the course of a career. If I take your estimate of 18 TPE per year, over an average 15 season career that would be 250+ TPE that people from other leagues would get for free. That's a massive amount of TPE to gift someone for not doing any work here on the SHL and something that SHL-only members would either a) not get (if they are semi-active) or b) have to work quite hard for. A hundred or so PTs over the course of a career means that someone is willing to put substantial time into this league, in fact if someone is able to crank out those PTs in just ten minutes, it would be about 16 hours of real life work that go into it. So SHL-only members have to do that work, but people from other leagues who otherwise wouldn't even give the SHL a chance don't? That doesn't sound fair at all, even if it leads to a few new members. It's not like these new members we are bringing in are very likely to be pillars of this community either, as you said yourself they probably wouldn't even have joined if not for some severe handouts. The very core principle of this league is that activity should be rewarded, that it should be the main determining factor of ones success (aside from STHS beloved randomness), softening up that principle is unnecessary and I think counterproductive.
08-20-2018, 09:06 PMTroy_McClure03 Wrote: I'm not sure I fully get it. Does this mean that if I choose to not join those other leagues that I am at a disadvantage?
No you still do your PT here like nothing has changed. If you wish to join those leagues than you can do 1 PT to count for all 3. You'll still do the same amount of work here if you don't join them.
So this just let's folks who are in all three do 1/3 of the work for the few points a season that pop up? I guess if you are in all three that's neat.
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08-20-2018, 08:52 PMTheDangaZone Wrote: While that was part of the argument against it we ultimately decided that the PTs are really only worth about 18 TPE a season tops. 5-6 PTs at 3 TPE a piece. Since this doesn't count for weekly training, ACs, various other Point Tasks, and CW, then the amount they really get from this isn't as much as one would think. The things that still set the super active apart from the rest will still have to be earned for those who truly want it.
In the end if it ups activity around the site as well as bringing in new members then the pay off of 18 TPE a season is very much worth it.
I think you are underestimating the impact that PTs have over the course of a career. If I take your estimate of 18 TPE per year, over an average 15 season career that would be 250+ TPE that people from other leagues would get for free. That's a massive amount of TPE to gift someone for not doing any work here on the SHL and something that SHL-only members would either a) not get (if they are semi-active) or b) have to work quite hard for. A hundred or so PTs over the course of a career means that someone is willing to put substantial time into this league, in fact if someone is able to crank out those PTs in just ten minutes, it would be about 16 hours of real life work that go into it. So SHL-only members have to do that work, but people from other leagues who otherwise wouldn't even give the SHL a chance don't? That doesn't sound fair at all, even if it leads to a few new members. It's not like these new members we are bringing in are very likely to be pillars of this community either, as you said yourself they probably wouldn't even have joined if not for some severe handouts. The very core principle of this league is that activity should be rewarded, that it should be the main determining factor of ones success (aside from STHS beloved randomness), softening up that principle is unnecessary and I think counterproductive.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. We have agreed in HO to monitor this to make sure it does in fact help the league. If it doesn't then the other leagues know we can leave it. At the end of the day higher activity is the main focus. And I apologize if you don't agree with the way we're going about it.
08-20-2018, 08:52 PMTheDangaZone Wrote: While that was part of the argument against it we ultimately decided that the PTs are really only worth about 18 TPE a season tops. 5-6 PTs at 3 TPE a piece. Since this doesn't count for weekly training, ACs, various other Point Tasks, and CW, then the amount they really get from this isn't as much as one would think. The things that still set the super active apart from the rest will still have to be earned for those who truly want it.
In the end if it ups activity around the site as well as bringing in new members then the pay off of 18 TPE a season is very much worth it.
I think you are underestimating the impact that PTs have over the course of a career. If I take your estimate of 18 TPE per year, over an average 15 season career that would be 250+ TPE that people from other leagues would get for free. That's a massive amount of TPE to gift someone for not doing any work here on the SHL and something that SHL-only members would either a) not get (if they are semi-active) or b) have to work quite hard for. A hundred or so PTs over the course of a career means that someone is willing to put substantial time into this league, in fact if someone is able to crank out those PTs in just ten minutes, it would be about 16 hours of real life work that go into it. So SHL-only members have to do that work, but people from other leagues who otherwise wouldn't even give the SHL a chance don't? That doesn't sound fair at all, even if it leads to a few new members. It's not like these new members we are bringing in are very likely to be pillars of this community either, as you said yourself they probably wouldn't even have joined if not for some severe handouts. The very core principle of this league is that activity should be rewarded, that it should be the main determining factor of ones success (aside from STHS beloved randomness), softening up that principle is unnecessary and I think counterproductive.
08-20-2018, 09:06 PMTroy_McClure03 Wrote: I'm not sure I fully get it. Does this mean that if I choose to not join those other leagues that I am at a disadvantage?
No you still do your PT here like nothing has changed. If you wish to join those leagues than you can do 1 PT to count for all 3. You'll still do the same amount of work here if you don't join them.
So this just let's folks who are in all three do 1/3 of the work for the few points a season that pop up? I guess if you are in all three that's neat.
08-20-2018, 08:23 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Ugh, I know this is indeed working well in other leagues, but I'm not a fan of implementing this here to be quite honest. Allowing people to get pretty close to maxing out over the course of their careers while basically being able to half-ass things is a massive change to this leagues structure, a bigger one I think than people are realizing. I enjoy leagues like the GOMHL or the SCOR for their more casual feel but the SHL is not that, and it shouldn't be that either. It's the premium product, the one where you have to put in the most work but where in return the results are most rewarding and I think we'd be better served to keep it that way. That doesn't mean that there can't be changes to make lifes easier for the members around here, but for a long time now there have basically been two things in this league that set apart semi-actives and super actives, and that's PTs and Equipment. Damaging the integrity of one of these two foundations without a clear need to is not a good idea imho.
Could not agree more. This is a good intention mixed with a bad idea and poor implementation. The league should desire actives not actives in name only. A person who spends zero time on the site each week shouldn't be earning TPE by skipping the league Point Tasks.
This is a crutch for weak leagues and the SHL shouldn't need to rely on it. I would rather see Reddit drafts each off-season than this.
I know it's just an example, but a reddit draft every offseason wouldn't work, both because there's no way we'd get permission to post that often and because our message would get stale. People already get mad and say we post all the time as it is.
I'll be honest, I was opposed to the idea when it was first presented to us. Even now I'm not certain it's the right direction to move in, but that's why we're giving it a try for one season. If it doesn't go well, we're under no obligation to keep doing it. Honestly it's kind of low risk, high (potential) reward. People still need to write media to earn money to buy equipment and weekly training, and we have a ton of PTs people will have to complete in order to truly stay up on their player (only 18/40 potential capped TPE can come from this, not including any other uncapped opportunities along the way). There's still going to be separation between the most and least active whatever happens here.
Plus it doesn't mean that people need to join either of these leagues. I won't be taking part in the PT sharing program whenever I recreate and start fresh with a new player. If people aren't interested in doing PT sharing, they don't have to.
The last thing we want to do is lag behind the curve and watch the SHL die out. Sim leagues are increasingly moving towards this kind of idea, so let's give it a shot and move away from that idea that SHL is strongly entrenched in its ways and refuses to change.
08-20-2018, 08:23 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Ugh, I know this is indeed working well in other leagues, but I'm not a fan of implementing this here to be quite honest. Allowing people to get pretty close to maxing out over the course of their careers while basically being able to half-ass things is a massive change to this leagues structure, a bigger one I think than people are realizing. I enjoy leagues like the GOMHL or the SCOR for their more casual feel but the SHL is not that, and it shouldn't be that either. It's the premium product, the one where you have to put in the most work but where in return the results are most rewarding and I think we'd be better served to keep it that way. That doesn't mean that there can't be changes to make lifes easier for the members around here, but for a long time now there have basically been two things in this league that set apart semi-actives and super actives, and that's PTs and Equipment. Damaging the integrity of one of these two foundations without a clear need to is not a good idea imho.
While that was part of the argument against it we ultimately decided that the PTs are really only worth about 18 TPE a season tops. 5-6 PTs at 3 TPE a piece. Since this doesn't count for weekly training, ACs, various other Point Tasks, and CW, then the amount they really get from this isn't as much as one would think. The things that still set the super active apart from the rest will still have to be earned for those who truly want it.
In the end if it ups activity around the site as well as bringing in new members then the pay off of 18 TPE a season is very much worth it.
AC and weekly training require what? 10 minutes a week? Equipment is maybe 5 minutes per season? I don't think you're going to bring people back to the league as actives when it's pretty clear that all you're doing is giving them free TPE for being in a league other than the SHL. If they want an SHL player then they need to do the SHL work. It should be that simple.
5 Minutes per season to purchase it yes but how much work do you actually have to put in to have enough for equipment. It's a lot of time and the ones who buy it will have to put in work. Training as well. Contracts only get you so far especially in a league where everyone takes the minimum to help their team. Jobs and media are required to have a top earner here and that requires a lot more time than 5 minutes a week.
I disagree. As a GM you're more inclined to give your budget to a guy you know will spend it on training each week rather than someone who just might. A person who is heavily invested in a different league and spends no time on the SHL is now more valuable to the SHL than a standard semi active member. GMs now need to know what other leagues members play in as it now determines their SHL value.
You forget that players have been paid by contract alone more than they could spend on training and equipment alone. It does happen. It can happen. So a full active member of the SHL will likely not only take a pay cut but will now have to work harder and have less value than a guy who plays full time in another league.
08-20-2018, 08:23 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Ugh, I know this is indeed working well in other leagues, but I'm not a fan of implementing this here to be quite honest. Allowing people to get pretty close to maxing out over the course of their careers while basically being able to half-ass things is a massive change to this leagues structure, a bigger one I think than people are realizing. I enjoy leagues like the GOMHL or the SCOR for their more casual feel but the SHL is not that, and it shouldn't be that either. It's the premium product, the one where you have to put in the most work but where in return the results are most rewarding and I think we'd be better served to keep it that way. That doesn't mean that there can't be changes to make lifes easier for the members around here, but for a long time now there have basically been two things in this league that set apart semi-actives and super actives, and that's PTs and Equipment. Damaging the integrity of one of these two foundations without a clear need to is not a good idea imho.
Could not agree more. This is a good intention mixed with a bad idea and poor implementation. The league should desire actives not actives in name only. A person who spends zero time on the site each week shouldn't be earning TPE by skipping the league Point Tasks.
This is a crutch for weak leagues and the SHL shouldn't need to rely on it. I would rather see Reddit drafts each off-season than this.
I know it's just an example, but a reddit draft every offseason wouldn't work, both because there's no way we'd get permission to post that often and because our message would get stale. People already get mad and say we post all the time as it is.
I'll be honest, I was opposed to the idea when it was first presented to us. Even now I'm not certain it's the right direction to move in, but that's why we're giving it a try for one season. If it doesn't go well, we're under no obligation to keep doing it. Honestly it's kind of low risk, high (potential) reward. People still need to write media to earn money to buy equipment and weekly training, and we have a ton of PTs people will have to complete in order to truly stay up on their player (only 18/40 potential capped TPE can come from this, not including any other uncapped opportunities along the way). There's still going to be separation between the most and least active whatever happens here.
Plus it doesn't mean that people need to join either of these leagues. I won't be taking part in the PT sharing program whenever I recreate and start fresh with a new player. If people aren't interested in doing PT sharing, they don't have to.
The last thing we want to do is lag behind the curve and watch the SHL die out. Sim leagues are increasingly moving towards this kind of idea, so let's give it a shot and move away from that idea that SHL is strongly entrenched in its ways and refuses to change.
I have always encouraged change and the need to adapt. This isn't it. This is what leagues with 20 members do. It shouldn't be what we do. If they want to use our PT for their league then by all means, but why should we reward work not done in our league for only a few semi actives? Its not the direction the SHL should be going.
08-20-2018, 09:20 PM(This post was last modified: 08-20-2018, 09:21 PM by Dangles13.)
I'm not gonna lie, I ain't fully reading those walls of text, RED. I think you have some good points but it isn't going to slow down the harcores by any means. A person who isn't super interested in the SHL is still going to update half heartedly.
I think that a benefit that many don't see is that this strengthens our affiliations and makes it so that the SHL is not a standalone league. The VHL/SBA/EFL connection is strong and you see similar changes sweep through all 3 leagues at once.
08-20-2018, 09:17 PMSchultzy Wrote: I disagree. As a GM you're more inclined to give your budget to a guy you know will spend it on training each week rather than someone who just might. A person who is heavily invested in a different league and spends no time on the SHL is now more valuable to the SHL than a standard semi active member. GMs now need to know what other leagues members play in as it now determines their SHL value.
You forget that players have been paid by contract alone more than they could spend on training and equipment alone. It does happen. It can happen. So a full active member of the SHL will likely not only take a pay cut but will now have to work harder and have less value than a guy who plays full time in another league.
How is that not a broken system?
I would like you to go through the budget and look at the contracts for everyone in the league and point to me one single person who makes 14.5M enough to buy both training and equipment. The absolute max you see is 6-7M
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