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Wasty · 10-11-2018, 08:16 AM

10-11-2018, 07:34 AMNobody Wrote:
10-11-2018, 04:04 AMWasty Wrote: Uh its the IIHF... nobody cares lol

Yeah, I'm an IIHF GM of course I care

damn you lol

#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS Whalers

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ztevans · 10-11-2018, 08:31 AM

10-11-2018, 08:16 AMWasty Wrote: damn you lol

At some point we should petition HO to just block the use of the word "nobody" in forum settings to prevent this

Chris-McZehrl · 10-11-2018, 09:17 AM

lol

ztevans · 10-11-2018, 09:36 AM

10-11-2018, 09:17 AMChris-McZehrl Wrote: lol

I believe that's the tl;Dr, yes

Grapehead · 10-11-2018, 10:09 AM

10-11-2018, 06:52 AMztevans Wrote: So I'm pretty conflicted. The rules are the rules, but this still really feels like it's coming out of left field and somehow feels unfair to Latvia. :(

Well they can still get Ontanis, just a season later, and jorgurtaa loses $2m... doesn't seem like this will at all affect Latvia in any significant way.

ztevans · 10-11-2018, 10:31 AM

10-11-2018, 10:09 AMGrapehead Wrote:
10-11-2018, 06:52 AMztevans Wrote: So I'm pretty conflicted. The rules are the rules, but this still really feels like it's coming out of left field and somehow feels unfair to Latvia. :(

Well they can still get Ontanis, just a season later, and jorgurtaa loses $2m... doesn't seem like this will at all affect Latvia in any significant way.

Hopefully that's how it plays out.

crutch · 10-11-2018, 11:59 AM

No potato for you

caltroit_red_flames · 10-11-2018, 12:03 PM

10-11-2018, 07:34 AMNobody Wrote:
10-11-2018, 04:04 AMWasty Wrote: Uh its the IIHF... nobody cares lol

Yeah, I'm an IIHF GM of course I care

I get the joke, but speaking frankly...

Gotta second that. Blastmeaway and I are pouring are hearts and souls into managing Czechoslovakia and our players are giving it back to us. If you care other people will too. It's unfortunate that some people aren't getting the benefit of enjoying the IIHF and WJC as much as they could, because it's a really great part of the SHL experience that really makes the offseason something to look forward to, especially if you're on a team that will likely miss the playoffs or are a rookie that only has the WJC to look forward to while you wait for your SMJHL draft.

***artermis*** · 10-11-2018, 12:51 PM

10-11-2018, 03:08 AMiOBESE Wrote: I call bullshit here! Are you serious? The rule says one full SMJHL season, no specifics, so as a normal person you would assume that season means regular season as for a lot of teams season ends at the end of the regular season if they do not make into playoffs. So season is done, what is the issue? Do we really need to wait for an actual playoff sim to happen, to get on with normal business? Is there any objections from any of the sides of this transfer? Who's toe did we step on? The fact that in your opinion there was violation of rules, I will say that there was no violation because the rules were written as they were and just because you see in a specific way does not mean you're right.

Quote:- SMJHL Rookies CANNOT be contacted before the beginning of the SMJHL Playoffs

This is the rule, based on which you are putting out punishment. As the rule post is already modified by you, I do not know what was the original writing of the rules, but please show me where there is information when the playoffs start? Show me confirmed calendar of the "season" to understand when "season" starts, when it ends and when the playoff period starts?

Now if you want to make that correction, that you have to wait on the first sim, fair enough, you can do that, but you cannot force a law/rule on someone when it clearly does not say that yet. If you would understand how law/rules work, then you would know that unfortunately how the rule/law is written, that's how you understand it, not how you interpret it or how you thought it should be. Nah, it says - beginning of the SMJHL Playoffs - so in this case answering a simple question - When regular season ends, what comes next? The answer would be - Playoffs, so the playoff period has already started, there is no inbetween gap period, so the fact that you want to push this to some strict, specific deadline or in this case startline makes no sense and is invalid reason for this punishment.

Actually, the rulebook states " their first full SMJHL season's playoffs", so no, playoffs are specified as opposed to the regular season. Yes, we do need the first playoff sim to have happened simply due to the fact that that is the benchmark that we have used for seasons. This off-season alone, two people have asked in the HO to confirm the rule was based on the first sim and twice it was confirmed, not to mention this is a rule that is quoted every couple seasons.

Also, this is not an opinion call, in fact I had six people come to may on the day of the transfer asking about if it was tampering, much more than the Czech-Reddit situation which only warranted three believe it or not.

I'd also like to point out that the rule that you have quoted is not the correct quote from the rulebook, merely a simplification for the transfer thread.

The rule prior to my addition of four words, as shown in my previous post in bold, is as follow:

- Do not converse with players before their first full SMJHL season's playoffs regarding matters to do with transferring to your own nation or other statements that may be construed as such, as it is tampering. You will be punished by not being able to perform any transfer for one full season as well as a fine and suspension on the first offense. If there is a second offense, you will be fired as well. In order to attract new players, you must rely on the thread you posted in the "International Recruiting" subforum. There will be a new welcome message sent to all new sign ups automatically that will link to that section.

As you can see here, the rule states "first full SMJHL season's playoffs", a clause that has been part of the tampering rule, unchanged, for tens of seasons now.

Once again, this is not an opinion call, as this rule has been used and this deadline has been used for seasons before I, not to mention there is very real gap between playoffs and regular season, at least in terms of play, so I believe that's where the "first sim" clause came into effect, but rest assured I am not the one who implemented it and it is quite old.

If the rule was not known very well by our Federation Heads, and if we hadn't addressed it several times prior to the transfer, than perhaps it'd be another Gaia situation, in that we recognize our failure to provide clear rules, but that is not the case.

kit · 10-11-2018, 12:53 PM

wow at the term "struck down" clearly IIHF HO has a god complex

***artermis*** · 10-11-2018, 12:56 PM

10-11-2018, 06:52 AMztevans Wrote: @iOBESE Here is the text of the former rule.

Do not converse with players before their first full SMJHL season's playoffs regarding matters to do with transferring to your own nation or other statements that may be construed as such, as it is tampering. You will be punished by not being able to perform any transfer for one full season as well as a fine and suspension on the first offense. If there is a second offense, you will be fired as well. In order to attract new players, you must rely on the thread you posted in the "International Recruiting" subforum. There will be a new welcome message sent to all new sign ups automatically that will link to that section.

10-11-2018, 04:41 AMDude Wrote: Yea it's always been the first sim of the playoffs. Pretty common knowledge. Feel like heads should know that.

I would agree with this, but it was pretty common knowledge at one point that the "In order to attract new players, you must rely on the thread you posted in the "International Recruiting" subforum" of the very rule in question would apply to comments on a Reddit post until that was deemed to not be the case. It was pretty common knowledge you couldn't apply for a federation head job if you weren't eligible to at least transfer to the federation until the Russia apps took place.

So I'm pretty conflicted. The rules are the rules, but this still really feels like it's coming out of left field and somehow feels unfair to Latvia. :(

The reddit post problem was an opinion call that I now admit was in the wrong. The initial thought process was that, as long as one did not do any of the recruiting in the actual post and simply shared the recruitment thread, then that'd still be exactly what you are doing, but the Czechs were the only ones that took on the post idea, and that in itself is a problem. More importantly however, was the risk of influencing players far too early in the creation process. I have admitted and continually admit I was absolutely wrong, and we have now learned from such a scenario to not get too creative with our recruitment strategies.

As for the Russia apps: Sleepy's hiring was out of necessity, as no Russian applied.

So I can understand where you're coming from in all this "rules" turmoil, but each scenario has been discussed in detail between the members of the HO and these have been the solutions we've come to.

iOBESE · 10-11-2018, 08:32 PM

@artermis what I usually have issues with HO decisions, not always and on rare occasions, but it happens, is when HO makes a decision for punishment without considering no human factor. When HO makes a decision straight forward just because there is a rule and in some way it was broken so that's it, nothing more to it. In this case I have such issue with this decision because we already spoke last season when I said that I believe HO has no rights to not allow a transfer when the player himself has showed interest and will to do it, I said that it is the player decision. But sure, I can agree with what you said then as one season is a lot of time and things can change and decision as well. In this case, the player showed interest to transfer to Team Latvia last season ,so we already waited a season, but now the issue is because Jogurtaa posted the transfer like 20hrs too early. Alright, sure, technically it does break what the rulebook says, but is this really some sort of an issue? Would anyone lose something with this transfer?

Nobody · 10-11-2018, 08:41 PM

10-11-2018, 08:32 PMiOBESE Wrote: @artermis what I usually have issues with HO decisions, not always and on rare occasions, but it happens, is when HO makes a decision for punishment without considering no human factor. When HO makes a decision straight forward just because there is a rule and in some way it was broken so that's it, nothing more to it. In this case I have such issue with this decision because we already spoke last season when I said that I believe HO has no rights to not allow a transfer when the player himself has showed interest and will to do it, I said that it is the player decision. But sure, I can agree with what you said then as one season is a lot of time and things can change and decision as well. In this case, the player showed interest to transfer to Team Latvia last season ,so we already waited a season, but now the issue is because Jogurtaa posted the transfer like 20hrs too early. Alright, sure, technically it does break what the rulebook says, but is this really some sort of an issue? Would anyone lose something with this transfer?

You can't go talking to/transferring players when the rest of us are following the rules and unable to talk to them. It's really not a hard rule to follow. I've had people come to me about a transfer and told them it can't happen/be talked about until the playoffs. It's that easy.

hockeyfan · 10-11-2018, 08:49 PM

The human element was applied to the ruling. It probably should have been a harsher penalty considering it’s not a hard rule to follow but no harm was meant by it.

***39alaska39*** · 10-11-2018, 08:50 PM

10-11-2018, 08:32 PMOh iOBESE Wrote: @artermis what I usually have issues with HO decisions, not always and on rare occasions, but it happens, is when HO makes a decision for punishment without considering no human factor. When HO makes a decision straight forward just because there is a rule and in some way it was broken so that's it, nothing more to it. In this case I have such issue with this decision because we already spoke last season when I said that I believe HO has no rights to not allow a transfer when the player himself has showed interest and will to do it, I said that it is the player decision. But sure, I can agree with what you said then as one season is a lot of time and things can change and decision as well. In this case, the player showed interest to transfer to Team Latvia last season ,so we already waited a season, but now the issue is because Jogurtaa posted the transfer like 20hrs too early. Alright, sure, technically it does break what the rulebook says, but is this really some sort of an issue? Would anyone lose something with this transfer?

Well yeah. Every team that waited until the playoffs started didn’t even get a chance to make their pitch to them before the Latvians did. Which broke the rules. I’m not saying it would have changed anything but gotta give the chance to everyone for fairness right?

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