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Mayuu · 12-12-2018, 08:17 PM

12-12-2018, 08:09 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:
12-12-2018, 08:06 PMMayuu Wrote: Is the current concept sustainable?
I can see reasons other then sim results that would benefit from this. Like not crating a ass player just cause your new and don't know the cookie cutter builds.

I spent my player change and redistributed 90 points my first two seasons cause I didn't know how boring a player I would have.

I think having solid archetypes would help with player retention.

The current concept is what it is. Nobody is trying to assert it solved diversity issues.

When you make a change and devote time and effort (which will require the entire site to make changes to just like the update scale changes) you have to demonstrate its sustainability, because if not then you made changes for the same thing to happen anyway.

How does having "solid" archetypes help with player retention if the results don't follow the builds?

Cause I know very well how close I was to just throwing in the towel when I realized what a shitty build my player had compared to the good ones.

We had players in the juniors who quit cause they don't wanna grind an additional 12m just cause they picked a non functioning strength weakness combo cause they choose defensive d or power forward instead of something more generic with mor eoptions.

RETIRED

*Good_Ole_Kimmy* · 12-12-2018, 08:18 PM

12-12-2018, 07:46 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: let's bring in the Freak archetype from SBA tbh

give the TPE nerds something to do while building their "Gretzky"

We can learn so much from how SBA does updates and player building imo

Rabidsponge21 · 12-12-2018, 08:20 PM

Smaller Scale changes

Endurance 90-> 99 - has little to no effect right?
Checking 90->99 - Has little to no effect right?
Discipline
Fighting
Strength?
Faceoffs?

Do any of these being a strength really have as sweeping of an influence of

Passing
Scoring
Skating
Defense
Puck Handling

???

Why even off them as strengths honestly when anyone who stays active enough to make it a few seasons in the SHL will be told to probably pay or ask to change 1 of them anyways? Might as well remove them to be honest no? Your setting newbs up for extra heart ache and failure?

Mack · 12-12-2018, 08:27 PM

12-12-2018, 07:55 PMWannabeFinn Wrote:
12-12-2018, 07:47 PMMack Wrote: I know this problem has been talked about for the two plus years I have been on the site but it doesn't seem like HO ever makes any actual changes to make the league/sims better. Mostly they seem to just be there to police bad boy words and rule breakers.
Instead of pointing fingers at this monolithic HO you have in mind, why not contribute to the conversation in a constructive way?

I give constructive feedback constantly on these forums and on discord. Obviously you have your head too far up your own ass to notice. I just wrote this comment to give my opinion that HO doesn't seem keen to make REAL changes no matter how good the feedback is. People in the HO change but it seems no matter who gets the jobs it's just too hard for them to make any real changes. That being said I am not surprised because that job just seems so awful I don't see how it even attracts anyone to begin with.

ArGarBarGar · 12-12-2018, 08:31 PM

If anything I would argue for removing archetypes altogether instead of forcing people to a certain build forever.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
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Rabidsponge21 · 12-12-2018, 08:46 PM

What about the suggestion for Juniors being 2 years instead of one? Considering how it works now anyways? I dont think this would be a massive negative change for the league?

ArGarBarGar · 12-12-2018, 09:15 PM

That one seems superfluous and prevents people from jumping straight to the show if they want. I would at least like that option for my new players.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
[Image: IeEV7Iv.png]

***Tomen*** · 12-12-2018, 09:17 PM

12-12-2018, 08:46 PMRabidsponge21 Wrote: What about the suggestion for Juniors being 2 years instead of one? Considering how it works now anyways? I dont think this would be a massive negative change for the league?

That would be definitely an interesting one. Would definitely make an interesting change would prolly eliminate busts/steals a tad more.

Thank you all for the amazing sigs & player cards
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Rabidsponge21 · 12-12-2018, 09:19 PM

12-12-2018, 09:15 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: That one seems superfluous and prevents people from jumping straight to the show if they want. I would at least like that option for my new players.

Literally the only people who do it is the odd recreate. It's a majority vs minority. Why not just add the option for those to declare early if they choose. Best of both worlds. But if you declare early your timer starts.

ArGarBarGar · 12-12-2018, 09:22 PM

12-12-2018, 09:19 PMRabidsponge21 Wrote:
12-12-2018, 09:15 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: That one seems superfluous and prevents people from jumping straight to the show if they want. I would at least like that option for my new players.

Literally the only people who do it is the odd recreate. It's a majority vs minority. Why not just add the option for those to declare early if they choose. Best of both worlds. But if you declare early your timer starts.

It was much more prevalent when the talent wasn't so high amongst current teams. I did it as a newcomer, as did a bunch in my draft class.

I would rather expand and give younger players more opportunities.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
[Image: IeEV7Iv.png]

Boomcheck · 12-12-2018, 10:09 PM

1) Earning cap could combat some maxing of attys, but may make people restless. Some guys already complaining about the capped TPE cap. Do like the idea since there's no carry over in this league anyways.

2) I'm one of those that dislike spending extra time in Juniors. I'm more concerned that there continues to be no added benefit for players that go up and contribute to the major leagues instead of just laying in wait for their monster 600-700+ TPE rookie season start and pump their own PPG. Maybe give players a TPE incentive to go up quicker. I bet the awards committee and don't look at true rookies and give them some sort of extra look in votes like they do irl. Give me the choice to go to the SHL early, don't force me.

For the regression, like I mentioned somewhere, 2 more played club. You get 10 seasons of non regression, so that's potentially 500 games you can get in if you go up immediately. People are adding another 4-6 seasons of games, but why not? From seasons 11-14 the regression take off is only 10%. For a 1k player that's only 100 TPE and i'm pretty sure people can earn 100 tpe in a season. Don't quite know the solution. Maybe extend non regression seasons to 12 (600 games) and make it extremely harsher from season 13+. idk

Archetypes are tough to change, except that enforcer stuff. That build is literally just a goon. Why can't I be a decent player and still get to fight? oof. Like ArGar says, people will just game the system regardless. Lets say you make all these other archetypes, people can just pick the best archetype and go from there. The problem is pretty simple, it's STHS/ Unless we change our method of simming then I think this archetype issue may continue. Maybe we need to develop some kind of code that searches through the play by play text in the sim, using certain phrases and tracking them for added advanced statistics. May make people look at certain attributes differently if we have some other stats that can be a factor in how they are viewed.

Symmetrik · 12-12-2018, 10:23 PM

12-12-2018, 08:17 PMMayuu Wrote:
12-12-2018, 08:09 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: The current concept is what it is. Nobody is trying to assert it solved diversity issues.

When you make a change and devote time and effort (which will require the entire site to make changes to just like the update scale changes) you have to demonstrate its sustainability, because if not then you made changes for the same thing to happen anyway.

How does having "solid" archetypes help with player retention if the results don't follow the builds?

Cause I know very well how close I was to just throwing in the towel when I realized what a shitty build my player had compared to the good ones.

We had players in the juniors who quit cause they don't wanna grind an additional 12m just cause they picked a non functioning strength weakness combo cause they choose defensive d or power forward instead of something more generic with mor eoptions.

That's always going to be the case though. It literally doesn't change anything. They're still the same attributes with the same inherent problems in STHS. Changing the archetypes isn't going to suddenly mean new players know that defense is god status, even for offensive players, or that skating/scoring/passing are decision makers. Those are still going to be problems for new players who come in, pick a sniper build, and then realize that a defense weakness, or cap, or whatever, sucks.

No matter which way you cut it, there's still going to be optimized players, and it's not going to take that long to figure it out. And there's still going to be new players who pick a bad archetype.

*Scrufdaddy* · 12-12-2018, 10:59 PM

12-12-2018, 10:09 PMBoomcheck Wrote: Archetypes are tough to change, except that enforcer stuff. That build is literally just a goon. Why can't I be a decent player and still get to fight? oof. Like ArGar says, people will just game the system regardless. Lets say you make all these other archetypes, people can just pick the best archetype and go from there. The problem is pretty simple, it's STHS/ Unless we change our method of simming then I think this archetype issue may continue. Maybe we need to develop some kind of code that searches through the play by play text in the sim, using certain phrases and tracking them for added advanced statistics. May make people look at certain attributes differently if we have some other stats that can be a factor in how they are viewed.

This is something I've been looking at because I just joined and have a Defensive Defensemen. Currently, my scripts can only pull the regular play by play, but I can pull down all games for a team for a season. I've used it to see what percentage of my hits actually strip the puck, and so I can look at my penalties. (Also look at those stats by period over the season, here is my analysis as a media post)

I've been thinking about taking a stab at the full play by plays although it will be a bit trickier to parse. Plays are split up by a period, but for example St. Louis has a period in the city name, so I'm thinking of just a dictionary of recognized plays. I'm open to any ideas about what kind of advanced stats people would want to see.

DeletedAtUserRequest · 12-12-2018, 11:11 PM

implementing some of these suggestions goes a long way in rectifying the build issues.. but I feel like with this we need more attributes....or at least we need to find a way to make the less important attributes more important... cause at the end of the day we’d still be relying on 4-5 attributes to build a player.

Is there a way to also address this? As an example is there a setting that allows us to modify the output/importance of some of the attributes outside of the scoring ones?

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***Hallsy*** · 12-12-2018, 11:26 PM

12-12-2018, 07:49 PMArGarBarGar Wrote: Too bad you did this after I recorded my podcast, because there are a lot of comments I have just on the changes you want to make alone.

As I have said numerous times the bottleneck will always be in STHS, and attempts to make "diverse" builds will be hampered by the fact people will be striving for the meta of "goals-assists-hits" constantly. Not to mention STHS isn't even reliable enough to rely on archetypes actually doing anything.

This. Honestly, the only way to combat this is to make a TPE Cap per season and get rid of archetypes/strengths and weaknesses but the end of the day the same 4 or 5 attributes will be favored heavily.

very few really want to be that 3rd line grinder /stay at home defender/etc. heck very few go in and says lets make a 3rd line player. everyone wants to be a top six forward or a top four dman.

Also what about goalies?

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