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GCool · 04-15-2019, 09:55 AM

Guys,

I've had some serious problems maintaining my composure this weekend. There were a ton of issues with regression - the math, the adding/subtracting, listing no cap for S46 or S47. This should be routine stuff for a lot of you, especially if you're in regression. That [should] mean that you've been exposed to how updating works for 10+ seasons.

There were also a lot of issues ... well, everywhere else.

So I'm asking everybody what their biggest issues are with updating. I don't want to hear about how tedious it is to link the claims and do all of the forum shit because that isn't my point (unless that's genuinely confusing you). I want to know just how confusing it is to do everything correctly, and I want to figure out how to streamline it. It's been a little ridiculous lately and I'm this close to just naming names and going off on people but I thought this was a path that was a little more constructive.

I have a lot of people in my ears most of the time telling me how much better we'd be if we automated it. That's fine. But for now, it's not automated! So we need more people to be on the same page as the updating team as we try to get our jobs done.

caltroit_red_flames · 04-15-2019, 10:14 AM

Pretty simple solution imo, just require people to follow the format or tell them they don't get updated. Didn't we do that a season or two ago after the whole karey incident?

GCool · 04-15-2019, 10:20 AM

04-15-2019, 10:14 AMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: Pretty simple solution imo, just require people to follow the format or tell them they don't get updated. Didn't we do that a season or two ago after the whole karey incident?

I guess I wasn't clear; I understand the solution. We do now have the Marius rule, and we've "Marius Rule'd" lots of people to date. We have other rules stating that if an update is off by an egregious amount (like a math error over 10 TPE I think) then we reserve the right to not update.

That doesn't stop Logan calling updaters assholes. That doesn't stop PMs from GMs on Sunday night. I want a root cause analysis from the league at large, after careful thought, describing why updating sucks as much as it does.

GCool · 04-15-2019, 10:26 AM

I also feel the need to clarify that I understand updaters (and I) get paid. I'm not, rhetorically speaking, asking for your sympathy.

However, I understand that this shit is complicated, and I want to make the league's collective life easier. If you have literally any issue at all with updating your player, please let me and the team know. The issue might have higher prevalence than you think! If we get enough requests to change something, I absolutely have the ability to do that, and it can get fixed. I just need a dialogue to open.

caltroit_red_flames · 04-15-2019, 10:28 AM

04-15-2019, 10:20 AMGCool Wrote:
04-15-2019, 10:14 AMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: Pretty simple solution imo, just require people to follow the format or tell them they don't get updated. Didn't we do that a season or two ago after the whole karey incident?

I guess I wasn't clear; I understand the solution. We do now have the Marius rule, and we've "Marius Rule'd" lots of people to date. We have other rules stating that if an update is off by an egregious amount (like a math error over 10 TPE I think) then we reserve the right to not update.

That doesn't stop Logan calling updaters assholes. That doesn't stop PMs from GMs on Sunday night. I want a root cause analysis from the league at large, after careful thought, describing why updating sucks as much as it does.

Updating doesn't suck. For experienced members. If you've been doing it for about 2 seasons you know what you're doing. The issue is updating is tedious and a lot of people don't like dealing with the numbers so they rush through it and don't want to deal with it.

Truly, until there's some sort of automated error checking or automated updating the issue isn't going to get better.

GCool · 04-15-2019, 10:32 AM

04-15-2019, 10:28 AMcaltroit_red_flames Wrote: Updating doesn't suck. For experienced members. If you've been doing it for about 2 seasons you know what you're doing. The issue is updating is tedious and a lot of people don't like dealing with the numbers so they rush through it and don't want to deal with it.

Truly, until there's some sort of automated error checking or automated updating the issue isn't going to get better.

The learning curve is steep for a lot of people. It's one of the more confusing aspects of the forum to learn. There are a lot of people who simply don't get it or can't be bothered.

I'm all for simply refusing the updates until they get their shit together, and GM's should be held accountable if shit like that continues to happen. I just want to know, from people who have had their updates sent back, what the big fucking deal about spending time on the precious TPE is.

JNH · 04-15-2019, 10:32 AM

- Dilligent users sometimes make mistakes
- Humans in general make mistakes
- Some here are too lazy/don't feel like to check for their mistakes or ask for someone to double check
- Some still don't completely understand the updating format and process
- Math is hard

I think these are the main 5 problems and there isn't necessarily something updating can do about it unless we automate the process of adding TPE to players or have some kind of form (e.g. you put link/tpe earned from that task/stats adjusted/tpe cap into a form and it spits out a formatted update). Then potentially we could just have the human side of things double checking that they entered the right amount. Under these conditions, I see absolutely no reason why anyone could be upset their update was rejected because they'd have had every chance to make sure it was correct. Sure an honest error or two may happen but it could be a step in the right direction.

I don't feel like the issue is with updating or anything you can do, I think you've done a great job directing the team and the updaters themselves have done great with updating, finding errors, notifying players and helping make changes.

DeletedAtUserRequest · 04-15-2019, 10:32 AM

04-15-2019, 10:26 AMGCool Wrote: I also feel the need to clarify that I understand updaters (and I) get paid. I'm not, rhetorically speaking, asking for your sympathy.

However, I understand that this shit is complicated, and I want to make the league's collective life easier. If you have literally any issue at all with updating your player, please let me and the team know. The issue might have higher prevalence than you think! If we get enough requests to change something, I absolutely have the ability to do that, and it can get fixed. I just need a dialogue to open.

G cool your doing a great job, I love the passion you bring to the position.

How about creating a update template for everyone to cut and paste into our update pages where we can fill in the blanks. Maybe even Add it to the first page of every new members update page. I think that would be useful to new members and dudes like me that for many seasons made a horrific update post..I think that could go along way in standardizing the updating which would prob makes your lives allot easier.

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JNH · 04-15-2019, 10:35 AM

Further as an example to my point, @SDCore makes sure he gets @SpartanGibbles to check over every update for formatting and other errors. Which is great and he never gets rejected and has to complain, but it's the exception and not the rule. We can't expect everyone to do that so we need to find some other way to streamline the updating to reduce errors & make it more user friendly. I don't have a huge problem with it, but I've also been here for over 5 years.

JNH · 04-15-2019, 10:37 AM

04-15-2019, 10:32 AMMike Izzy Wrote: I think that would be useful to new members and dudes like me that for many seasons make a horrific update post..I think that could go along way in standardizing the updating which would prob makes your lives allot easier.

the carnage of the post draft update Aggrieved

I think I added a template when I was SMJHL commish but it probably wasn't visible enough and could definitely be improved upon. Also probably has gotten a bit lost since that was around S20-25.

*Otrebor13* · 04-15-2019, 10:37 AM

04-15-2019, 10:32 AMMike Izzy Wrote:
04-15-2019, 10:26 AMGCool Wrote: I also feel the need to clarify that I understand updaters (and I) get paid. I'm not, rhetorically speaking, asking for your sympathy.

However, I understand that this shit is complicated, and I want to make the league's collective life easier. If you have literally any issue at all with updating your player, please let me and the team know. The issue might have higher prevalence than you think! If we get enough requests to change something, I absolutely have the ability to do that, and it can get fixed. I just need a dialogue to open.

G cool your doing a great job, I love the passion you bring to the job.

How about creating a template for everyone to cut and paste into our update pages where we can fill in the blanks. Maybe even Add it to the first page of every new members update page. I think that would be useful to new members and dudes like me that for many seasons make a horrific update post...l.I think that could go along way in standardizing the updating which would prob makes your lives allot easier.

I was going to say something similar to this. I think there are a lot of issues in updates in that there is no standardized method of doing updates. Some members have clean threads, while others just throw their links and TPE however they want and expect the updaters to go through it and ensure it's done correctly.

Not sure if it would be possible, but when new members sign up/new players are created (whether for recreates or first-gen players) there's a brief period of their player being "activated". Along with the hello message and informing players they're free to discuss with teams or go on their way, why doesn't an update thread for them get created with a first post linking to the rules as well as including a template for users? While this won't stop the mathematical errors of updates, it might make the process easier to understand and get a grasp of, limiting the possibility of updates bouncing back due to players not understanding how it works.

Edit - To clarify: An update thread is created and linked in the hello message on player pages. In update thread, first post includes the rules and the update template

GCool · 04-15-2019, 10:38 AM

@JNH and @~~Mike Izzy~~ I appreciate it. Good points and suggestions - I do like the idea of an [updated] update template to incorporate in the "new player package", so to speak. It might help a little bit to blow the dust off the "My First PT!" template and re-visit just how useful a learning tool it is.

***Hallsy*** · 04-15-2019, 10:42 AM

There is already an format posted stickied in every SHL updating sub-forum

http://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=13931

It just needs to be updated with the karey rule.

JNH · 04-15-2019, 10:47 AM

04-15-2019, 10:42 AMThatDamnMcJesus Wrote: There is already an format posted stickied in every SHL updating sub-forum

http://simulationhockey.com/showthread.php?tid=13931

It just needs to be updated with the karey rule.

hey that's my template i think

woo

DeletedAtUserRequest · 04-15-2019, 10:48 AM

04-15-2019, 10:38 AMGCool Wrote: @JNH and @~~Mike Izzy~~ I appreciate it. Good points and suggestions - I do like the idea of an [updated] update template to incorporate in the "new player package", so to speak. It might help a little bit to blow the dust off the "My First PT!" template and re-visit just how useful a learning tool it is.

Yes sir....every updating OP is different ... make that first page a tutorial with a cut and paste template and a paragraph or 2 what you think are the important things for them to know as well as the departments expectations. Small addition with long lasting positive implications. Cheers

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