So, first and foremost, please whoever is reading this, don't take this as an attack, assault, etc. It has nothing to do with one thing, other than my experience here even beyond this "run" in my time with the SHL, and I was told this is the best place to air out some suggestions, hence the name of the sub-forum haha, so, here we go.
Hiring is a big deal, the process behind it while challenging could be quite a lot more effective than the current procedure which really...there isn't one. Now I could be wrong, maybe candidates that the "HO" liked were sent follow-up questions, or maybe they weren't, I do not know, as it was not the case for me. Now, not only is this a little discouraging, but the system to me feels slightly outdated and flawed, to say the least.
You ask 4-5 simple, easy to answer questions, someone's experience, someone's time in the league, and so on, some great beginner questions, something that certainly is supposed to catch the eye of the HO, however, what do those questions do?
Well, right now, if you're good enough, you just simply get the job.
But why is it so simple? How is the decision made on 4-5 simple questions based on how many different users, how do you truly know that someone is not only capable of the job...but the best fit?
The answer is simple...you really don't.
A lot of the time, I look at the hiring process as a drawn out process, you maybe have a phone interview IRL, you then most of the time get scheduled for an in-person interview, a lot of the time, you're even asked for a follow-up on that, and while the process is lengthy, and very sometimes boring, it's necessary for those people to get the correct information and most importantly the most information for the position they are hiring.
Now again, don't get me wrong, the way it is now, maybe there is more to it, we as members don't see the deliberations, we just simply see the results, and I think that too, is a little disappointing, especially in my eyes, I think of the new members.
They apply, not even have their application acknowledged, don't hear back for follow-up, then all of a sudden, what... the results are posted, someone has been chosen?
I'd be a little upset to know, that without even so much as a "thank you for your application" or, "hey, here is a few more questions we'd like to follow up with" happening, that the decision-making is made on very little information.
Again, I am not here to step on toes, its absolutely not my intention, maybe I'm the only one feeling this way and I am being silly, but I could also be a little old school haha, and set in my ways of what an "interview" is supposed to be.
Any feedback would be awesome, suggestions, improvements, or even hate, I mean again, this isn't something I am crapping on people for, so no need to be attacking me, but, let me know what you think. I'd be happy to help in improving the system to make the experience of applying much more...appealing and even easier for someone, to feel acknowledged.
07-24-2019, 10:29 PMiRockstar Wrote: So, first and foremost, please whoever is reading this, don't take this as an attack, assault, etc. It has nothing to do with one thing, other than my experience here even beyond this "run" in my time with the SHL, and I was told this is the best place to air out some suggestions, hence the name of the sub-forum haha, so, here we go.
Hiring is a big deal, the process behind it while challenging could be quite a lot more effective than the current procedure which really...there isn't one. Now I could be wrong, maybe candidates that the "HO" liked were sent follow-up questions, or maybe they weren't, I do not know, as it was not the case for me. Now, not only is this a little discouraging, but the system to me feels slightly outdated and flawed, to say the least.
You ask 4-5 simple, easy to answer questions, someone's experience, someone's time in the league, and so on, some great beginner questions, something that certainly is supposed to catch the eye of the HO, however, what do those questions do?
Well, right now, if you're good enough, you just simply get the job.
But why is it so simple? How is the decision made on 4-5 simple questions based on how many different users, how do you truly know that someone is not only capable of the job...but the best fit?
The answer is simple...you really don't.
A lot of the time, I look at the hiring process as a drawn out process, you maybe have a phone interview IRL, you then most of the time get scheduled for an in-person interview, a lot of the time, you're even asked for a follow-up on that, and while the process is lengthy, and very sometimes boring, it's necessary for those people to get the correct information and most importantly the most information for the position they are hiring.
Now again, don't get me wrong, the way it is now, maybe there is more to it, we as members don't see the deliberations, we just simply see the results, and I think that too, is a little disappointing, especially in my eyes, I think of the new members.
They apply, not even have their application acknowledged, don't hear back for follow-up, then all of a sudden, what... the results are posted, someone has been chosen?
I'd be a little upset to know, that without even so much as a "thank you for your application" or, "hey, here is a few more questions we'd like to follow up with" happening, that the decision-making is made on very little information.
Again, I am not here to step on toes, its absolutely not my intention, maybe I'm the only one feeling this way and I am being silly, but I could also be a little old school haha, and set in my ways of what an "interview" is supposed to be.
Any feedback would be awesome, suggestions, improvements, or even hate, I mean again, this isn't something I am crapping on people for, so no need to be attacking me, but, let me know what you think. I'd be happy to help in improving the system to make the experience of applying much more...appealing and even easier for someone, to feel acknowledged.
for sure agree, I applied to PT director and didn't hear anything back, then a second hiring post for it came out and I sent a follow up PM that was like "uh so i guess I didn't get it?" and still no reply.
When GMs apply for WJC I try to say thanks for the app, tell them the timeframe on when they'll hear about a decision, and if they don't get it PM them how they can improve their chances for next time
07-24-2019, 10:29 PMiRockstar Wrote: So, first and foremost, please whoever is reading this, don't take this as an attack, assault, etc. It has nothing to do with one thing, other than my experience here even beyond this "run" in my time with the SHL, and I was told this is the best place to air out some suggestions, hence the name of the sub-forum haha, so, here we go.
Hiring is a big deal, the process behind it while challenging could be quite a lot more effective than the current procedure which really...there isn't one. Now I could be wrong, maybe candidates that the "HO" liked were sent follow-up questions, or maybe they weren't, I do not know, as it was not the case for me. Now, not only is this a little discouraging, but the system to me feels slightly outdated and flawed, to say the least.
You ask 4-5 simple, easy to answer questions, someone's experience, someone's time in the league, and so on, some great beginner questions, something that certainly is supposed to catch the eye of the HO, however, what do those questions do?
Well, right now, if you're good enough, you just simply get the job.
But why is it so simple? How is the decision made on 4-5 simple questions based on how many different users, how do you truly know that someone is not only capable of the job...but the best fit?
The answer is simple...you really don't.
A lot of the time, I look at the hiring process as a drawn out process, you maybe have a phone interview IRL, you then most of the time get scheduled for an in-person interview, a lot of the time, you're even asked for a follow-up on that, and while the process is lengthy, and very sometimes boring, it's necessary for those people to get the correct information and most importantly the most information for the position they are hiring.
Now again, don't get me wrong, the way it is now, maybe there is more to it, we as members don't see the deliberations, we just simply see the results, and I think that too, is a little disappointing, especially in my eyes, I think of the new members.
They apply, not even have their application acknowledged, don't hear back for follow-up, then all of a sudden, what... the results are posted, someone has been chosen?
I'd be a little upset to know, that without even so much as a "thank you for your application" or, "hey, here is a few more questions we'd like to follow up with" happening, that the decision-making is made on very little information.
Again, I am not here to step on toes, its absolutely not my intention, maybe I'm the only one feeling this way and I am being silly, but I could also be a little old school haha, and set in my ways of what an "interview" is supposed to be.
Any feedback would be awesome, suggestions, improvements, or even hate, I mean again, this isn't something I am crapping on people for, so no need to be attacking me, but, let me know what you think. I'd be happy to help in improving the system to make the experience of applying much more...appealing and even easier for someone, to feel acknowledged.
for sure agree, I applied to PT director and didn't hear anything back, then a second hiring post for it came out and I sent a follow up PM that was like "uh so i guess I didn't get it?" and still no reply.
When GMs apply for WJC I try to say thanks for the app, tell them the timeframe on when they'll hear about a decision, and if they don't get it PM them how they can improve their chances for next time
And this to me, is all that is needed, and if the candidates are applying for a big role, GM, HO, etc, like to me, how can you NOT want to follow-up with serious candidates to find out more? I get people have been here a while, there will always be names that if they apply you're just like "yep, this guy/girl is great, know their status, etc" but there still has to be some kind of transparency, because right now it's just silly to find out about a job I applied for just simply by seeing it was assigned to someone else, and like I said now I even know, I'm not the only one haha.
I hear and appreciate your concern. I've definitely felt the same way about hiring around here. Any time I missed out on a position I made a point to ask the hiring officer what I could do better to get the position, and never got a real answer. It sucks and it feels bad.
As far as SMJHL goes, it's not my job to disclose every SMJHL application and explain why HO picked who they did. Discretion is very important, especially when we have outside applications from players on other teams. The last thing I want is retaliation or suboptimal applications for fear of retaliation. From my perspective, puts everyone at too much risk for routine SMJHL HO hirings like GMs to be 100% transparent.
That said, I have an open policy that I will honestly answer any question to the best of my ability, including a question from a person who didn't get a given position about why we selected who we did and why their application didn't win. I'd be happy to do it in private, I'd be happy to do it in public, but I'll only do it on request from the applicant. I will also be blunt and direct, which is why I wait for a solicitation. There's not enough time to do day-to-day operations and write unsolicited "you're bad here's why" messages eight times for every job.
@iRockstar I'm not going to go into any applications you may or may not have sent to SMJHL HO in this thread (unless you ask), but I'd be happy to provide some insight upon request.
Tl;dr ask an honest question and I'll give you an honest answer.
07-24-2019, 10:45 PMgrok Wrote: I hear and appreciate your concern. I've definitely felt the same way about hiring around here. Any time I missed out on a position I made a point to ask the hiring officer what I could do better to get the position, and never got a real answer. It sucks and it feels bad.
As far as SMJHL goes, it's not my job to disclose every SMJHL application and explain why HO picked who they did. Discretion is very important, especially when we have outside applications from players on other teams. The last thing I want is retaliation or suboptimal applications for fear of retaliation. From my perspective, puts everyone at too much risk for routine SMJHL HO hirings like GMs to be 100% transparent.
That said, I have an open policy that I will honestly answer any question to the best of my ability, including a question from a person who didn't get a given position about why we selected who we did and why their application didn't win. I'd be happy to do it in private, I'd be happy to do it in public, but I'll only do it on request from the applicant. I will also be blunt and direct, which is why I wait for a solicitation. There's not enough time to do day-to-day operations and write unsolicited "you're bad here's why" messages eight times for every job.
@iRockstar I'm not going to go into any applications you may or may not have sent to SMJHL HO in this thread (unless you ask), but I'd be happy to provide some insight upon request.
Tl;dr ask an honest question and I'll give you an honest answer.
But as part of the process, of being an HO, you're confided in to pick the best candidate, correct. And I am not going out there and saying you're not doing so, based on your decisions, you are always picking the best one, but on WHAT information. If you're not willing to follow-up and you're not willing to really get down to the nitty gritty and if one measly 4-5 question questionnaire determines whether I get a position or not, there is way too much left in the dark unless someone asks me otherwise. And sure, people could take the initiative to message you after they apply, or do something to follow-up on their own, but quite honestly that's not the point, again revolving back to IRL, we're not expected to follow-up with an interview, they follow-up with us.
I just think there needs to be more that goes into the process, outside of the actual application it's all chatter behind closed doors between whoever is apart of HO, or even in other positions, whoever decides who gets whatever position is being applied for. And again, this isn't a knock at you, or anyone else at not doing their job "right" or whatever, I just feel like it isn't being done... effectively? For lack of a better word, and I am not saying that in a harsh way, I just can't seem to find a better/suitable word for what I am trying to say, lol.
07-24-2019, 10:45 PMgrok Wrote: I hear and appreciate your concern. I've definitely felt the same way about hiring around here. Any time I missed out on a position I made a point to ask the hiring officer what I could do better to get the position, and never got a real answer. It sucks and it feels bad.
As far as SMJHL goes, it's not my job to disclose every SMJHL application and explain why HO picked who they did. Discretion is very important, especially when we have outside applications from players on other teams. The last thing I want is retaliation or suboptimal applications for fear of retaliation. From my perspective, puts everyone at too much risk for routine SMJHL HO hirings like GMs to be 100% transparent.
That said, I have an open policy that I will honestly answer any question to the best of my ability, including a question from a person who didn't get a given position about why we selected who we did and why their application didn't win. I'd be happy to do it in private, I'd be happy to do it in public, but I'll only do it on request from the applicant. I will also be blunt and direct, which is why I wait for a solicitation. There's not enough time to do day-to-day operations and write unsolicited "you're bad here's why" messages eight times for every job.
@iRockstar I'm not going to go into any applications you may or may not have sent to SMJHL HO in this thread (unless you ask), but I'd be happy to provide some insight upon request.
Tl;dr ask an honest question and I'll give you an honest answer.
But as part of the process, of being an HO, you're confided in to pick the best candidate, correct. And I am not going out there and saying you're not doing so, based on your decisions, you are always picking the best one, but on WHAT information. If you're not willing to follow-up and you're not willing to really get down to the nitty gritty and if one measly 4-5 question questionnaire determines whether I get a position or not, there is way too much left in the dark unless someone asks me otherwise. And sure, people could take the initiative to message you after they apply, or do something to follow-up on their own, but quite honestly that's not the point, again revolving back to IRL, we're not expected to follow-up with an interview, they follow-up with us.
I just think there needs to be more that goes into the process, outside of the actual application it's all chatter behind closed doors between whoever is apart of HO, or even in other positions, whoever decides who gets whatever position is being applied for. And again, this isn't a knock at you, or anyone else at not doing their job "right" or whatever, I just feel like it isn't being done... effectively? For lack of a better word, and I am not saying that in a harsh way, I just can't seem to find a better/suitable word for what I am trying to say, lol.
I'm most interested in the idea that we are "unwilling to follow up" here. The issue is not that we are unwilling to follow up. The issue is that we only follow up when we need to. For every job opening there is at least one application that takes the "measly 4-5 question" application form and goes above and beyond, answering the questions appropriately and in depth, with great insight into not only the league but the team they're applying for. There are truly great applications every single time we post a job hiring.
We are perfectly prepared to follow up with candidates. I said it before; when a hiring decision gets very hard or very close, we'll reach out with additional questions or to open dialogue with two more more candidates still in the running. I love when I get to do that, and get in the weeds with someone about what they really want to do with a team. The issue is that the application is a filter, and usually it filters down to one. We are almost always able to quickly identify which candidate is the best choice and go with them. And results show. Using this system for hiring, only two SMJHL GMs were dismissed in the last ten seasons. We're hiring quality candidates and, at least as of late, willing to let hires go when it is clear they are wrong for the team.
I'm actually very curious about which ways HO should act like a business and which they should not act like a business in. It seems to be something you go into here. That we should act like a business and reach out to every individual who applies, but we also should be transparent about our hiring process. If we were really acting like a business, we would safeguard our hiring process as though our livelihoods depended on it. It's terrible business to reveal HR processes to non-HR, non-executive people, even if they're in your own organization. If I was a HR rep, I would never offer to tell someone why we passed on them as a candidate. But I don't think we are a business, which is why I'm extending my open door to people who feel they didn't get a fair shake, or who want some additional information about their candidacy compared to the eventual hire.
I really do want people to understand why we make the decisions we do, but there has to be a compromise that we cannot reveal information about the application process that creates risk for individuals. We just can't weather the idea of giving a retrospective to every candidate, especially those who didn't ask for one and don't want to know. And we just don't have the time to do individual interviews for every candidate for every position, especially when in the last week and a half we've put up three positions, run the lottery, prepared our state of the union, opened up a press conference, continued working our initiatives for S50, hired a brand new commissioner, began draft scheduling, supported the recruiting team, and maintained the day-to-day operations of the league during playoffs.
That's why I'm honestly begging y'all, just talk to us before you try and light us up on the site. Please. We will answer and help you as much as we can.
07-24-2019, 10:50 PMiRockstar Wrote: But as part of the process, of being an HO, you're confided in to pick the best candidate, correct. And I am not going out there and saying you're not doing so, based on your decisions, you are always picking the best one, but on WHAT information. If you're not willing to follow-up and you're not willing to really get down to the nitty gritty and if one measly 4-5 question questionnaire determines whether I get a position or not, there is way too much left in the dark unless someone asks me otherwise. And sure, people could take the initiative to message you after they apply, or do something to follow-up on their own, but quite honestly that's not the point, again revolving back to IRL, we're not expected to follow-up with an interview, they follow-up with us.
I just think there needs to be more that goes into the process, outside of the actual application it's all chatter behind closed doors between whoever is apart of HO, or even in other positions, whoever decides who gets whatever position is being applied for. And again, this isn't a knock at you, or anyone else at not doing their job "right" or whatever, I just feel like it isn't being done... effectively? For lack of a better word, and I am not saying that in a harsh way, I just can't seem to find a better/suitable word for what I am trying to say, lol.
I'm most interested in the idea that we are "unwilling to follow up" here. The issue is not that we are unwilling to follow up. The issue is that we only follow up when we need to. For every job opening there is at least one application that takes the "measly 4-5 question" application form and goes above and beyond, answering the questions appropriately and in depth, with great insight into not only the league but the team they're applying for. There are truly great applications every single time we post a job hiring.
We are perfectly prepared to follow up with candidates. I said it before; when a hiring decision gets very hard or very close, we'll reach out with additional questions or to open dialogue with two more more candidates still in the running. I love when I get to do that, and get in the weeds with someone about what they really want to do with a team. The issue is that the application is a filter, and usually it filters down to one. We are almost always able to quickly identify which candidate is the best choice and go with them. And results show. Using this system for hiring, only two SMJHL GMs were dismissed in the last ten seasons. We're hiring quality candidates and, at least as of late, willing to let hires go when it is clear they are wrong for the team.
I'm actually very curious about which ways HO should act like a business and which they should not act like a business in. It seems to be something you go into here. That we should act like a business and reach out to every individual who applies, but we also should be transparent about our hiring process. If we were really acting like a business, we would safeguard our hiring process as though our livelihoods depended on it. It's terrible business to reveal HR processes to non-HR, non-executive people, even if they're in your own organization. If I was a HR rep, I would never offer to tell someone why we passed on them as a candidate. But I don't think we are a business, which is why I'm extending my open door to people who feel they didn't get a fair shake, or who want some additional information about their candidacy compared to the eventual hire.
I really do want people to understand why we make the decisions we do, but there has to be a compromise that we cannot reveal information about the application process that creates risk for individuals. We just can't weather the idea of giving a retrospective to every candidate, especially those who didn't ask for one and don't want to know. And we just don't have the time to do individual interviews for every candidate for every position, especially when in the last week and a half we've put up three positions, run the lottery, prepared our state of the union, opened up a press conference, continued working our initiatives for S50, hired a brand new commissioner, began draft scheduling, supported the recruiting team, and maintained the day-to-day operations of the league during playoffs.
That's why I'm honestly begging y'all, just talk to us before you try and light us up on the site. Please. We will answer and help you as much as we can.
This is a great response and all, but what are we supposed to do with all these pitchforks and torches we just bought?
07-24-2019, 11:14 PMgrok Wrote: I really do want people to understand why we make the decisions we do, but there has to be a compromise that we cannot reveal information about the application process that creates risk for individuals. We just can't weather the idea of giving a retrospective to every candidate, especially those who didn't ask for one and don't want to know. And we just don't have the time to do individual interviews for every candidate for every position, especially when in the last week and a half we've put up three positions, run the lottery, prepared our state of the union, opened up a press conference, continued working our initiatives for S50, hired a brand new commissioner, began draft scheduling, supported the recruiting team, and maintained the day-to-day operations of the league during playoffs.
Also, not for nothing, in a real-life job interview process, the interview is probably the first-ever interaction between the hiring manager and the applicant outside of arranging the interview. Here, people on the site interact with each other every day. You're really not that "in the dark" on the applicants.
I agree with this. As someone who has been hired for a couple different jobs that came with applications here, I can honestly say that I never got a response on any of them. I found out I got hired as Raptors GM from the announcement post and that’s the same way I found out I didn’t getting the Raptors job the first time. Even if there was just a simple message back saying, “Hey, thank you for your application but we’ve decided to go another direction” would go a long way in my opinion.
Alex Winters (retired)
Matej Winters (retired)
Dominik Winters S45 Jesster Trophy Winner Challenge Cup Winning Goal Club: S52
07-24-2019, 11:14 PMgrok Wrote: I really do want people to understand why we make the decisions we do, but there has to be a compromise that we cannot reveal information about the application process that creates risk for individuals. We just can't weather the idea of giving a retrospective to every candidate, especially those who didn't ask for one and don't want to know. And we just don't have the time to do individual interviews for every candidate for every position, especially when in the last week and a half we've put up three positions, run the lottery, prepared our state of the union, opened up a press conference, continued working our initiatives for S50, hired a brand new commissioner, began draft scheduling, supported the recruiting team, and maintained the day-to-day operations of the league during playoffs.
Also, not for nothing, in a real-life job interview process, the interview is probably the first-ever interaction between the hiring manager and the applicant outside of arranging the interview. Here, people on the site interact with each other every day. You're really not that "in the dark" on the applicants.
But this is exactly the flaw. I understand people know one another, we all interact here, and so on. But it doesn't make it any more encouraging for anyone who is either returning, or new for that matter, to feel like they stand a chance, because people automatically go with the same people they know and do NOTHING to get to know their possible future successors. Again, this isn't just towards HO, Slash said it happened to him with a totally different position that was dealt with by someone else completely.
I get some people can write essays on 4-5 questions, 4-5 questions should not determine if someone is good or not, no matter the bullshit they write in an essay, lets be real, I could easily write you 1000 words if I felt like it, but is it necessary? Maybe in the old-school way of hiring here, sure, but that shouldn't be the way it actually is, and with no responses and no communication through the whole process, it's disappointing as I mentioned more than anything to not even know what's going on with the position until its decided.
07-24-2019, 11:34 PM39alaska39 Wrote: I agree with this. As someone who has been hired for a couple different jobs that came with applications here, I can honestly say that I never got a response on any of them. I found out I got hired as Raptors GM from the announcement post and that’s the same way I found out I didn’t getting the Raptors job the first time. Even if there was just a simple message back saying, “Hey, thank you for your application but we’ve decided to go another direction” would go a long way in my opinion.
I'm considering adding "collect and respond to applications as instructed" to the intern position. Not sure yet but it's under consideration.
And for what it's worth, we do have a new policy of offering jobs to the winning applicant prior to the announcement. I've done it for fuzz and NJ.
07-24-2019, 11:42 PMiRockstar Wrote: I get some people can write essays on 4-5 questions, 4-5 questions should not determine if someone is good or not, no matter the bullshit they write in an essay, lets be real, I could easily write you 1000 words if I felt like it, but is it necessary?
I'll be real with you. I'm an S43 first gen who avoided the big discord like the plague. I don't know everyone on the site, so the apps are often my first impression of people who aren't very actively engaged with the SMJHL.
And you're telling me here you could easily make a better first impression with a stronger application, but you're consciously choosing not to?
07-24-2019, 11:42 PMiRockstar Wrote: I get some people can write essays on 4-5 questions, 4-5 questions should not determine if someone is good or not, no matter the bullshit they write in an essay, lets be real, I could easily write you 1000 words if I felt like it, but is it necessary?
I'll be real with you. I'm an S43 first gen who avoided the big discord like the plague. I don't know everyone on the site, so the apps are often my first impression of people who aren't very actively engaged with the SMJHL.
And you're telling me here you could easily make a better first impression with a stronger application, but you're consciously choosing not to?
I was under the impression SOMEONE would have done so much as to acknowledge my application and if they needed further information...to ask. Why put all my eggs in one basket when I can then have a real conversation with someone and answer as much as possible through the course of an interaction? Knowing that wont happen and people only view the initial application, I now know, I'll need to write essays to get jobs, which I am fine with, but it's just not what I expected.
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