08-21-2021, 02:26 PMSymmetrik Wrote:

08-21-2021, 12:24 PMspooked Wrote: You have now made tampering legal, what do we do now? That is what you are suggesting we do as people only have those kinds of talks outside of the official channels for obvious reasons, which we literally have no way to verify. Like we can take people at their word, and talk to others and take them as witness, but that's about the best we can do most of the time if we are not going to just fire every gm for being late on their budget or something.

I want to point out a recent(ish, from february this year) where the Stampede didn't sign Selich ON THE FORUM. It was understood there was an agreement. But they still had to do it on site, and they didn't. So they were playing an illegal player.

HO already set the precedent that even if there was an agreement, if it's not on the forum, it's not official. So officially, Hamilton did not sign these players before the deadline. So they should have been bid on.

08-21-2021, 02:43 PMJumpierPegasus Wrote:

08-21-2021, 02:18 PMml002 Wrote: Y'all are still going?

Haven't really gotten any good answers from people involved and it doesn't really feel like there ever will be. So people will remain upset

08-21-2021, 02:57 PMspooked Wrote:

08-21-2021, 02:43 PMJumpierPegasus Wrote: Haven't really gotten any good answers from people involved and it doesn't really feel like there ever will be. So people will remain upset

I have been trying to explain as much as I can for like nearly 24 hours between the site and discord, if you want any more answers you can pm me or discord me with specific stuff. Just don't flame me pls god

08-21-2021, 03:11 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:

08-21-2021, 02:57 PMspooked Wrote: I have been trying to explain as much as I can for like nearly 24 hours between the site and discord, if you want any more answers you can pm me or discord me with specific stuff. Just don't flame me pls god

The things is... I don't think I've ever seen a decision so universally hated in my entire time in this league. Everybody aside from the offending party seems to agree that this was a terrible call, yet there seems no willingness from the league leaderships side to reconsider or even acknowledge any wrong-doing. That's why people are so upset, explanations how that bad verdict was reached aren't enough at this point.

08-21-2021, 01:09 PMspooked Wrote:

08-21-2021, 12:39 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: we're not talking about something that is necessarily subject to interpretation (which is why HO exists) -- things like harassment, tampering, and otherwise communicative behavior -- we're talking about pen and paper contracts. Either you have one or you don't. Handshake agreements aren't a thing here, as normally to prove one (in a business law setting) you'd have to prove that both parties had moved forward as if one existed and had upheld the contract (until one party didn't, causing conflict and the court of law is introduced). But we can't prove parties were moving forward because by definition the moment the deadline passed, the players in question are unable to move forward because they are subject to bidding. No contract was tendered officially, no contract was posted officially, nor rejected or accepted. It ceased to be and intent is irrelevant.

I will probably try to end this here since it is a cyclical issue. I am serious when I say I agree with your ideal for how this should work, and we want to work towards that. Ideally for me as well everything is done on the site, and if it isn't we could void it or not count it until it is completed. That is the most straightforward application we can get to in terms of a rules structure and application of the rules.

The issue then becomes that this site is a hobby and not everyone is active 24/7 to accept contracts in time for a deadline, and in some cases they simply don't really care enough to show up. There is a fundamental challenge across the league that we cannot pause the season to wait for someone to have the time to agree in a thread, but the thread gets posted after the GM has already agreed in private, and in cases where people cannot accept in time in the forum, or the GMs are having trouble reaching them, we will defer to a private agreement that is provided as proof to allow the signing to occur under the assumption that when the player returns they can accept the deal. Now, if there are issues when the player comes back that is another topic, which would end up in a punishment.

Without the ability to allow these signings a lot of teams would at some points have struggles locking down parts of their rosters in time for a deadline, and may have issues fielding rosters in time for the season if the problem gets dire enough and they need to replace multiple people who failed to type "accept". In some cases these players may even end up having to sit out a season if no one has space to pick up their contract when they return. If we are going by the letter of the rules, a lot of teams would end up with limbo players (not inactive enough to be autosignable, but not active enough to reliably sign legally within the window they are doing contracts in) and it could impact the league if we made every GM replace every player that didn't show up for a couple days. A player going on vacation during the offseason could see them be left out for a couple months just cause they were busy on a specific day when the threads go up, god forbid its someone new to the site, I doubt we would ever see them again.

You would get literally no complaints from me if we could move to a full-on rulebook wins world, makes my life WAY easier, but that is realistically not something that makes sense in a world where this is a hobby site and fake money that people forget to post in sometimes and aren't all equally motivated to take part in. We need to make things painless for players if we can, and part of that is making contracts easy for them and not confusing them with random team changes because they tuned out for a bit or because their gm was a bit late on something. I have no issues getting your perspective cause I would like things that way if we could, but it would just cause so many headaches that it is literally not worth going down that avenue with some parts of the rulebook.

EDIT: If you want to talk more about this you can reach out on discord probably, I just need to get some other stuff done today so hopefully I explained enough, but I am always available if you want to talk about anything!

08-21-2021, 02:30 PMleviadan Wrote:

08-21-2021, 02:26 PMMemento Mori Wrote: I've never spoken to you, but I've heard all sorts of horrible things about you!

Jay Sink? More like Jay Stink.

( nothin' personal kid, but sometimes it's just too easy   )

08-21-2021, 04:39 PMNictox Wrote: 30 Or bust!

08-21-2021, 05:00 PMSDCore Wrote:

08-21-2021, 04:39 PMNictox Wrote: 30 Or bust!

Can I offer you some bread?