Originally posted by Maxy@May 9 2014, 07:23 PM
Phaneuf is not a top guy whatsoever. He's completely overrated and is a #2 DMan.

If that's true, name me 30 defenceman better than Phaneuf. You can't,. becomes he's a #1 guy. He's overrated by some, but he's certainly a #1 defenceman.

But whatever it's not worth arguing about. You Leafs fans just like to play scapegoat and throw people under the bus, when it's pretty clearly JUST YOUR TEAM who has problems with these people :lol: Carlyle on the Ducks, 6 seasons coached, 5 playoff appearances. And no the Ducks team wasn't better than the Leafs team all of those seasons.

That Ducks team was fantastic. They had a young elite line powered by Getzlaf, two HoF calibre defencemen, and quality goaltending. Let's not pretend the Ducks are in the same realm as the Leafs.

Beauchemin just awful player, terrible defenseman, leaves the Leafs, next season is 3rd in Norris voting. :lol:

Beauchemin is a fantastic defender.

The Leafs problem is far from coaching and I really did wish Carlyle would get fired so that maybe you Leafs fans who are so sure that Carlyle is the problem would just shut the hell up until this time next year when you're sitting in the exact same spot and wondering why

As someone else showed, the Leafs puck possession and shots against rose dramatically since Carlyle took over despite a more talented roster. How can that be anything BUT coaching? The only reason the Leafs did as well as they did is that last year Reimer and this year Bernier played out of their minds and hid all mistakes.

Carlyle is not a bad coach, whether he works out in Toronto or not, he's not a bad coach,

What is he good at? He alienates good players (MacArthur, Grabovski, now Gardiner & Kadri), and his defensive scheme is laughed at by the other 29 teams. He complains when Gardiner or Kadri make a mistake, and doesn't recognize all the other positives those two bring (I'm too lazy to find the stats, but the other players do better when they're on the ice vs off the ice).

if Nonis doesn't bring in players that work well on his system that's on him not Carlyle. You say he had influence on who to bring in, yet I see a defensive core that is pretty much the exact opposite of the players Carlyle likes to bring in, and an offense that's built for speed and not Carlyle's type of play, so Nonis needs to look at his roster and realize that oh shit, this roster clearly isn't going to succeed with the system we're trying to implement.

Alternatively, the coach can try adapating to the players he has instead of trying to force a square into a round peg.

Instead of signing players who actually help that cause, instead he went and signed a bottom 6 forward for top line money, a 2nd line center (at best) for a huge overpayment, and brought in zero help on the defensive side of things. So do tell me, how exactly does this help out Carlyle on the coaching side of things

.

Carlyle wanted toughness, which is why Clarkson was signed. They signed Bozak because he's Kessel's best friend and Carlyle and the Leafs value him. Both were mistakes and Nonis is to blame for them, but Carlyle did want a guy like Clarkson.

Fairly talented core is a bit of a stretch. Kessel and JVR are talented on offense, Kadri has the talent but is hot and cold, Lupul is as durable as toilet paper, Bozak is mediocre, Clarkson is awful, Kulemin is not suited for anything other than a depth role anymore.

Kadri is a fun player. In his first season he's a 50+ point guy and everybody calls him streaky. Shit, I think any team would kill for a young C putting up 50 points. You won't get any argument from me on Bozak, but Kuelmin is a great player who like Grabovski is put in the wrong role. He's the only quality defensive forward, so they throw him on a checking line where his linemates have no offensive ability. Combine that with no PP time, and obviously his points are going to suffer.

So aside from one line, on offense how exactly is this a talented core? Or maybe it's the defense you're referring to, with Phaneuf who's a good number 2 defenseman and nothing more, Gardiner who's still young and learning how to play a two way game, Reilly who was rushed entirely, Franson who turns the puck over more than just about anyone I know, Gunnarsson who's nothing more than a 2nd pairing dman, Gleason who's a good character guy.

Phaneuf, Gardiner, Reilly, and Gunarrson are solid defenceman, it's just the Leafs need one more top pairing guy to keep Phaneuf from having to play 25 minutes a night. And another shutdown defenceman wouldn't hurt either.

And lastly, teams don't win because of grit? You clearly don't watch the Ducks. Considering we've had grinders on our top wing all season long, a goon 2 way dman on our top line and entirely spotty goaltending yet we finished 2nd in the league and first in the far superior Western conference. Teams with grit succeed. Teams without it get pushed around.

What you're referring to grit and what I'm referring to grit are two very different things. The Ducks are a very talented team up and down the lineup. The "grit" that I complain about is the Colton Orr style "we need a tough guy enforcer who can't skate and just hits people".

It's one thing to have a player who can skate well, defend well, pass/score, and is willing to hit or do those kind of things. It's another who is basically there to go "roar I'm an enforcer ROAR"! Those kind of guys are who the Leafs decide to sign for grit, and it doesn't help a team win.

Someone else mentioned guys like Bolland - he averages .50 points per game for his career while playing good D. Guys like Bickell and Kelly are usually around .37-.47 per season. Compare that to the guys the Leafs use for "grit" like McClement, who has averaged around .21 points per game the last 3 seasons.

Notice the difference? It's one thing to be able to call a guy "gritty" and actually have a player who can make an impact defensively and offensively. It's another to have a guy like McClement, who gets owned on 5v5, doesn't score much, and is only useful on the PK (except for this year where teams had significantly more shots against the Leafs with McClement on the PK).

Originally posted by Twitchy@May 10 2014, 09:08 AM


If that's true, name me 30 defenceman better than Phaneuf. You can't,. becomes he's a #1 guy. He's overrated by some, but he's certainly a #1 defenceman.

Better
Zdeno Chara
Ryan Suter
Shea Weber
Duncan Keith
Brent Seabrook
Alex Pietrangelo
Ryan McDonough
Dennis Seidenberg
Drew Doughty
Niklas Kronwall

Debatable
Jay Bouwmeester
P.K. Subban
Mark Giordano
Marc Staal
Dan Girardi
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Erik Karlsson
Dan Boyle
Keith Yandle
Victor Hedman
John Carlson
Dustin Byfuglien
Kevin Shattenkirk
Andrei Markov
Paul Martin
Dan Hamhuis
Kris Letang
Andrej Sekera
Mike Green
Erik Johnson
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Karl Alzner

I'd take Subban and Karlsson as the better defenders over Phaneuf. Sure. there's some others I'd take over Phaneuf as well but those are the two that I think are in the better tier.

So pretty much what you've shown is there are 10 legitimate guys who are better and that's about it. PK and Vlasic are really the only others from the debatable group to put above Phaneuf. Certainly not guys like Mike Green.

Which is a long way of saying that, yes, Phaneuf is a legit #1 D-man.

Originally posted by Twitchy@May 10 2014, 11:15 AM
So pretty much what you've shown is there are 10 legitimate guys who are better and that's about it. PK and Vlasic are really the only others from the debatable group to put above Phaneuf. Certainly not guys like Mike Green.

Which is a long way of saying that, yes, Phaneuf is a legit #1 D-man.

Don't get me wrong, I think Phaneuf is a good defenseman, but I think you might be overrating him a little bit. I think playing in Toronto puts a lot of pressure and expectations on him to play better than he really is, which causes him to make some boneheaded plays. That, coupled with the pressures of being captain, is a large load for any player to shoulder.


Although I would like I point this out; legit #1 defenders are usually on teams that make the playoffs. Bolded below are defenders from my list that made the playoffs.


Better
Zdeno Chara
Ryan Suter
Shea Weber
Duncan Keith
Brent Seabrook
Alex Pietrangelo
Ryan McDonough
Dennis Seidenberg
Drew Doughty
Niklas Kronwall

Debatable
Jay Bouwmeester
P.K. Subban
Mark Giordano
Marc Staal
Dan Girardi
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Erik Karlsson
Dan Boyle
Keith Yandle
Victor Hedman
John Carlson
Dustin Byfuglien
Kevin Shattenkirk
Andrei Markov
Paul Martin
Dan Hamhuis
Kris Letang
Andrej Sekera
Mike Green
Erik Johnson
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Karl Alzner

Originally posted by Corco@May 10 2014, 10:37 AM


Don't get me wrong, I think Phaneuf is a good defenseman, but I think you might be overrating him a little bit.

I don't think he's an elite guy, I just think people are missing the boat if they think he's not a #1 guy. Every other defender you're listing has a legit partner, so Phaneuf would also work worse because of who he has to work with.

He's transformed himself into a better all around guy. The points are down a bit, but a big reason why is because he has to play more shutdown type minutes because nobody else on the Leafs roster can handle it. If the defence as a group was better, they'd be able to put him in more offensive situations.

Although I would like I point this out; legit #1 defenders are usually on teams that make the playoffs. Bolded below are defenders from my list that made the playoffs.


Better
[b]Zdeno Chara
Ryan Suter
Shea Weber
Duncan Keith
Brent Seabrook
Alex Pietrangelo
Ryan McDonough
Dennis Seidenberg
Drew Doughty
Niklas Kronwall

Debatable
Jay Bouwmeester
P.K. Subban
Mark Giordano
Marc Staal
Dan Girardi
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Erik Karlsson
Dan Boyle
Keith Yandle
Victor Hedman
John Carlson
Dustin Byfuglien
Kevin Shattenkirk
Andrei Markov
Paul Martin
Dan Hamhuis
Kris Letang
Andrej Sekera
Mike Green
Erik Johnson
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Karl Alzner[/b]

I think that if you switched Phaneuf with some of the bolded guys that the Leafs would be worse off, but I'm not going to argue with people you think are debatable to be better than Phaneuf.

I'm not a fan of Phaneuf. I just think that a lot of people say that he's a #2 defenceman and that's crazy. Hell, I was listening to the radio and I'm hearing things like McCowan saying he's not even a top 50 guy which is ludicrous. He's not a top end, Doughty/Weber #1 defenceman, but he's certainly a guy any team could feel confident about as a #1 defenceman. http://theleafsnation.com/2013/11/7/assess...of-dion-phaneuf is an older article but it does a very good job of summing up the fact that Phaneuf actually compares fairly well, and even better in some cases to some of the guys you've mentioned.

The bigger issue with the Leafs is the lack of additional top pairing defenders, which I think anybody can agree with.

Mclement plays with Colton Orr an Mclarn but ur complaining he cant score. Put pretty much any forward thats not a generational talent with them well playing maybe 5mins a night an expect them to produce too lol. Mclement can produce he just needs help. Hes a greay defensive forward who can chip in oncr in awhile

West Kendall

Rahotep Tutankhamun Right Wing
The Greatest Name Of All

McClement sucks on 5v5 regardless because he's not a very good player. He's good at faceoffs and he's good at penalty killing.

Regardless we're getting way off the point, which is that Carlyle is a joke.