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ztevans · 06-08-2019, 12:28 PM

It's another shorter episode, but it's a bit of a ride. I unintentionally realize while recording another reason Minnesota is kind of a shitshow right now, as well as life in Hamilton, getting inducted into the Hall of Fame (that's still really weird to say), and the growth of the Russian team - as well as some IIHF issues that have raised my ire that may or may not have led to the callout of a loyal listener.

ANCHOR LINK
SOUNDCLOUD LINK

Thanks to @ArGarBarGar, @Pris and @Slappydoodle for contributions.

EDIT: As mentioned in below podcast conversation, I state at one point Germany Federation Heads never submitted a roster for this season's IIHF Tournament. As it turns out, Germany submitted a roster, just in the wrong place, which is why I didn't see it. They are only guilty of not submitting lines for this tournament and forum incompetence, and frankly we're all guilty of forum incompetence on this maze of a site at least once in our lives.

DeletedAtUserRequest · 06-08-2019, 12:56 PM

hey Zach,

I skipped to the IIHF part and gave a quick listen. let me respond on that. Per the 22 man rule change, i as well was looking at whats best for the tounry Zach... its important not to piggyback on a new idea blindly ...but to thew out all possible goods and bads of any new addition to the tourny.. i wasnt sure if the positional movements would be a benifit or a detriment but i felt it was important that i bring it up so we can research together and decide as a group if thats an issue. that to me is good management and thats pretty much what we did right? Blast came in with the data and we were able to make a decision with the numbers in front of us. really i was just 1 dude of many in there collaberating on a new idea eh.

Also, the head guys dont listen to me lol... the IIHF head guys do what they want.. ive given many ideas over the seasons and none have ever been implamented. ive complained about auto lines as well.. asking for stricter laws when it came to missing deadlines... i mean from my perspective your only required job as Fed head is to set a lineup..(any more then that is gravy) 2 fed heads have all season to set 1 lineup... and if you cant do that then you should be fired cause its not fair to the tourny or the players... but i was told thats to harsh... so we have laws in place where we allow autolines instead of setting a lines date before the tourny so we can deal with missed lineups and keep the tourys numbers fair (like you said)....and we give multiple chances for ignoring your only requirement. in terms of anything else.. the rest on your pod i believe falls under IIHF structure.. and If you want better structure in the IIHF, you have to call out the ones who make policy. now back to listening to the rest of your esteemed Pod! Rolleyes

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ztevans · 06-08-2019, 01:13 PM

06-08-2019, 12:56 PMMike Izzy Wrote: hey Zach,

I skipped to the IIHF part and gave a quick listen. let me respond on that. Per the 22 man rule change, i as well was looking at whats best for the tounry Zach... its important not to piggyback on a new idea blindly ...but to thew out all possible goods and bads of any new addition to the tourny.. i wasnt sure if the positional movements would be a benifit or a detriment but i felt it was important that i bring it up so we can research together and decide as a group if thats an issue. that to me is good management and thats pretty much what we did right? Blast came in with the data and we were able to make a decision with the numbers in front of us. really i was just 1 dude of many in there collaberating on a new idea eh.

Also, the head guys dont listen to me lol... the IIHF head guys do what they want.. ive given many ideas over the seasons and none have ever been implamented. if they did consider those adds.. the tourny would be much bigger by now imo ...ive called for allot of changes and in terms of what your talking about on your pod..ive complained about auto lines as well.. asking for stricter laws when it came to missing deadlines... i mean from my perspective your only required job as Fed head is to set a lineup..(any more then that is gravy) 2 fed heads have have all season to set 1 lineup... and if you cant do that.. then you should immediatley be fired cause its not fair to the tourny or the players... but i was told thats to harsh... so we have laws in place where we allow countries to autoline instead of setting a lines date before the tourny so we can deal with missed lineups and keep the tourys numbers fair (like you said)....and we give multiple chances for ignoring your only requirement. in terms of anything else.. the rest on your pod i believe falls under IIHF structure.. and If you want better structure in the IIHF, you have to call out the ones who make policy.

now back to listening to the rest of your esteemed Pod!

Completely sidestepping the actual reason I called you out, neat. I don't question your intentions in the initial discussion regarding the roster expansion, but you have to admit you took such a hard stance on positional limits, even when hearing counterarguments from other small nation heads, and then promptly fielded the roster you did that both supported our arguments and flew in the face of your own? (Not to mention, goes against the current rulebook)

But yes, ultimately all of this falls on IIHF HO, I firmly agree. Both the allowance of your nine defenseman and the complete absence of German representation. I'd also like to see these laws you speak of that allegedly give free passes to unresponsive Federation Heads, because they aren't in the IIHF Rulebook, and I assume that would also be a conversation for the IIHF HO.

@artermis @Chris-McZehrl @Velevra

DeletedAtUserRequest · 06-08-2019, 01:23 PM

06-08-2019, 01:13 PMztevans Wrote:
06-08-2019, 12:56 PMMike Izzy Wrote: hey Zach,

I skipped to the IIHF part and gave a quick listen. let me respond on that. Per the 22 man rule change, i as well was looking at whats best for the tounry Zach... its important not to piggyback on a new idea blindly ...but to thew out all possible goods and bads of any new addition to the tourny.. i wasnt sure if the positional movements would be a benifit or a detriment but i felt it was important that i bring it up so we can research together and decide as a group if thats an issue. that to me is good management and thats pretty much what we did right? Blast came in with the data and we were able to make a decision with the numbers in front of us. really i was just 1 dude of many in there collaberating on a new idea eh.

Also, the head guys dont listen to me lol... the IIHF head guys do what they want.. ive given many ideas over the seasons and none have ever been implamented. ive complained about auto lines as well.. asking for stricter laws when it came to missing deadlines... i mean from my perspective your only required job as Fed head is to set a lineup..(any more then that is gravy) 2 fed heads have all season to set 1 lineup... and if you cant do that then you should be fired cause its not fair to the tourny or the players... but i was told thats to harsh... so we have laws in place where we allow autolines instead of setting a lines date before the tourny so we can deal with missed lineups and keep the tourys numbers fair (like you said)....and we give multiple chances for ignoring your only requirement. in terms of anything else.. the rest on your pod i believe falls under IIHF structure.. and If you want better structure in the IIHF, you have to call out the ones who make policy. now back to listening to the rest of your esteemed Pod!

Completely sidestepping the actual reason I called you out, neat. I don't question your intentions in the initial discussion regarding the roster expansion, but you have to admit you took such a hard stance on positional limits, even when hearing counterarguments from other small nation heads, and then promptly fielded the roster you did that both supported our arguments and flew in the face of your own? (Not to mention, goes against the current rulebook)

@artermis @Chris-McZehrl @Velevra

Again Zach, what you call a hard stance i call throwing out all the goods and bads of a new add... we dont need 16 'yes men' when discussing your idea for a new addition.. are you not happy that we were able to discuss in a respectful manner and then bring in the data to better make a decision? per the lineup ts not true Zach, there were some grey area issues with a player on my roster which myself and Physty were working privatley with IIHF HO on... we got to a point where a decision needed to be made as the tourny was ready to go.. so we added a lineup. Arty worked hard to help figure out what could be done, but time ran out... im not the type thats going to make a thunderdome post or come in media or go to other fed heads and discuss every issue going on... its up to IIHF HO to decide if they want to bring something up to others, if they choose to.

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***artermis*** · 06-08-2019, 01:53 PM

06-08-2019, 01:13 PMztevans Wrote:
06-08-2019, 12:56 PMMike Izzy Wrote: hey Zach,

I skipped to the IIHF part and gave a quick listen. let me respond on that. Per the 22 man rule change, i as well was looking at whats best for the tounry Zach... its important not to piggyback on a new idea blindly ...but to thew out all possible goods and bads of any new addition to the tourny.. i wasnt sure if the positional movements would be a benifit or a detriment but i felt it was important that i bring it up so we can research together and decide as a group if thats an issue. that to me is good management and thats pretty much what we did right? Blast came in with the data and we were able to make a decision with the numbers in front of us. really i was just 1 dude of many in there collaberating on a new idea eh.

Also, the head guys dont listen to me lol... the IIHF head guys do what they want.. ive given many ideas over the seasons and none have ever been implamented. if they did consider those adds.. the tourny would be much bigger by now imo ...ive called for allot of changes and in terms of what your talking about on your pod..ive complained about auto lines as well.. asking for stricter laws when it came to missing deadlines... i mean from my perspective your only required job as Fed head is to set a lineup..(any more then that is gravy) 2 fed heads have have all season to set 1 lineup... and if you cant do that.. then you should immediatley be fired cause its not fair to the tourny or the players... but i was told thats to harsh... so we have laws in place where we allow countries to autoline instead of setting a lines date before the tourny so we can deal with missed lineups and keep the tourys numbers fair (like you said)....and we give multiple chances for ignoring your only requirement. in terms of anything else.. the rest on your pod i believe falls under IIHF structure.. and If you want better structure in the IIHF, you have to call out the ones who make policy.

now back to listening to the rest of your esteemed Pod!

Completely sidestepping the actual reason I called you out, neat. I don't question your intentions in the initial discussion regarding the roster expansion, but you have to admit you took such a hard stance on positional limits, even when hearing counterarguments from other small nation heads, and then promptly fielded the roster you did that both supported our arguments and flew in the face of your own? (Not to mention, goes against the current rulebook)

But yes, ultimately all of this falls on IIHF HO, I firmly agree. Both the allowance of your nine defenseman and the complete absence of German representation. I'd also like to see these laws you speak of that allegedly give free passes to unresponsive Federation Heads, because they aren't in the IIHF Rulebook, and I assume that would also be a conversation for the IIHF HO.

@artermis @Chris-McZehrl @Velevra

A number of roster rules will be re-evaluated this off-season (I have a running check-list for discussion topics for the HO). It is clear that the rules requires a more concrete adaptation, but we decided to continue to apply it as we have been doing for dozens of seasons.

When I approved the Austrian roster, they feel within position requirements, I was not aware there were 9 defencemen.

Sami will not receive his salary as he missed the lines deadline, which is something we have by the way (2 days after the final sim of the SHL playoffs). In addition, should Sami fail to submit lines on-time in a 2nd successive season he will be fired, as per the rules.

On Izzy's opinions of the head office: we hear out every suggestion we receive, from yourself and from any other user on the site. We evaluate and look into each suggestion. If it was not implemented, then the HO does not see it fit to do so. So your claim that we do not listen to you is demonstrably false.

Differences of opinions exist, our vision of the IIHF on some matters do not coincide your own. There is no right path, and thus it's not that we're acting detrimentally to the IIHF, but doing our duties as part of the IIHF HO. You claim your vision of the IIHF would see it do more successful, while I see the tournament as successful currently, but with always more room to grow.

Also let it be known that their is no free pass on the seasonal check-in and roster submission duties of the Fed Heads, and lines are the only one given an additional season, as they are self-punishing but unhealthy for the league nonetheless.

ztevans · 06-08-2019, 02:01 PM

06-08-2019, 01:53 PMartermis Wrote: A number of roster rules will be re-evaluated this off-season (I have a running check-list for discussion topics for the HO). It is clear that the rules requires a more concrete adaptation, but we decided to continue to apply it as we have been doing for dozens of seasons.

When I approved the Austrian roster, they feel within position requirements, I was not aware there were 9 defencemen.

Sami will not receive his salary as he missed the lines deadline, which is something we have by the way (2 days after the final sim of the SHL playoffs). In addition, should Sami fail to submit lines on-time in a 2nd successive season he will be fired, as per the rules.

On Izzy's opinions of the head office: we hear out every suggestion we receive, from yourself and from any other user on the site. We evaluate and look into each suggestion. If it was not implemented, then the HO does not see it fit to do so. So your claim that we do not listen to you is demonstrably false.

Differences of opinions exist, our vision of the IIHF on some matters do not coincide your own. There is no right path, and thus it's not that we're acting detrimentally to the IIHF, but doing our duties as part of the IIHF HO. You claim your vision of the IIHF would see it do more successful, while I see the tournament as successful currently, but with always more room to grow.

Also let it be known that their is no free pass on the seasonal check-in and roster submission duties of the Fed Heads, and lines are the only one given an additional season, as they are self-punishing but unhealthy for the league nonetheless.

Thank you for the clarifications re: Germany. That felt ... uh ... much more in line with my expectation, I guess? Certainly again wish there had been a way to plug in an interim for the sake of this tournament if possible (as mentioned in the pod if you haven't had a chance to listen) but I definitely didn't think Heads kept their jobs after failing to submit a roster ... have seen several fired over the years for it.

Velevra · 06-08-2019, 02:05 PM

If you want to send me a message on the forum or on discord I would be happy to discuss any individual points you like when I'm home later today!

***artermis*** · 06-08-2019, 02:26 PM

06-08-2019, 02:01 PMztevans Wrote:
06-08-2019, 01:53 PMartermis Wrote: A number of roster rules will be re-evaluated this off-season (I have a running check-list for discussion topics for the HO). It is clear that the rules requires a more concrete adaptation, but we decided to continue to apply it as we have been doing for dozens of seasons.

When I approved the Austrian roster, they feel within position requirements, I was not aware there were 9 defencemen.

Sami will not receive his salary as he missed the lines deadline, which is something we have by the way (2 days after the final sim of the SHL playoffs). In addition, should Sami fail to submit lines on-time in a 2nd successive season he will be fired, as per the rules.

On Izzy's opinions of the head office: we hear out every suggestion we receive, from yourself and from any other user on the site. We evaluate and look into each suggestion. If it was not implemented, then the HO does not see it fit to do so. So your claim that we do not listen to you is demonstrably false.

Differences of opinions exist, our vision of the IIHF on some matters do not coincide your own. There is no right path, and thus it's not that we're acting detrimentally to the IIHF, but doing our duties as part of the IIHF HO. You claim your vision of the IIHF would see it do more successful, while I see the tournament as successful currently, but with always more room to grow.

Also let it be known that their is no free pass on the seasonal check-in and roster submission duties of the Fed Heads, and lines are the only one given an additional season, as they are self-punishing but unhealthy for the league nonetheless.

Thank you for the clarifications re: Germany. That felt ... uh ... much more in line with my expectation, I guess? Certainly again wish there had been a way to plug in an interim for the sake of this tournament if possible (as mentioned in the pod if you haven't had a chance to listen) but I definitely didn't think Heads kept their jobs after failing to submit a roster ... have seen several fired over the years for it.

Yeah, I PMed Sami one last time, if he doesn't respond Tomen will be brought on as interim-coach as he has so graciously volunteered, so we do have a bit of a back-up plan.

I haven't listened but now I must Biggrin

DeletedAtUserRequest · 06-08-2019, 02:33 PM

Zach: "I'd also like to see these laws you speak of that allegedly give free passes to unresponsive Federation Heads, because they aren't in the IIHF Rulebook, and I assume that would also be a conversation for the IIHF HO."

Well there was issues with teams not setting lineups in the past and it was discussed in the channel... a rule was put in maybe a handful of years back about giving GMs a 2nd season to set one if they missed a lineup. I believe thats the current rule in place. i dot think its fair to IIHF HO to discuss actual policy in media...but since its out here i think wed be better off if we set a hard date for lineups, have those lineups looked at and denied or approved and given enough time to make the proper changes so we put forth the best possible tourny.. and if theres a nation that ignores the 10 tags they get to submit a roster and its not due to an emergency (it being simply cause they didnt want to add it) they should be removed that season. im not 100% on this but i would guess that In the SHL if a GM doesnt set a lineup all year for non emergency issues) i got to believe they would be asked to resign no? .. should be the same here i believe.

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ztevans · 06-08-2019, 02:34 PM

06-08-2019, 02:05 PMVelevra Wrote: If you want to send me a message on the forum or on discord I would be happy to discuss any individual points you like when I'm home later today!

I did this, then forgot the forums have an option to send a PM to more than one person at a time lmao. I'll also send to Arty and McZ, just so everyone gets (literally) the same message.

ztevans · 06-08-2019, 02:36 PM

06-08-2019, 02:33 PMMike Izzy Wrote: Well there was issues with teams not setting lineups in the past and it was discussed in the channel... a rule was put in maybe a handful of years back about giving a team a 2nd chance if they missed a lineup. I believe thats the current rule in place. i dot think its fair to IIHF HO to discuss actual policy in media...but since its out here i think wed be better off if we set a hard date for lineups and if that nation ignores the 10 tags they get to submit a roster and its not due to an emergency (it being simply cause they didnt want to add it) they should be removed that season. im not 100% on this but i would guess that In the SHL if a GM doesnt set a lineup all year for non emergency issues) i got to believe they would be asked to resign no? .. should be the same here i believe.

Obviously most of these punishments don't apply for IIHF, but I'll pull a Tomen and quote the rulebook to cite the SHL stance on failure to meet GM deadlines

Quote:Other Offseason Duties:
1 day late on offseason duties being completed: Forfeiture of 1st owned 3rd round draft pick
2 days late: Forfeiture of 1st owned 2nd round draft pick (but retention of 3rd)
3 days late: Forfeiture of 1st owned 2nd round draft pick (but retention of 3rd) AND 1 mil cap penalty
4 days late: Forfeiture of 1st owned 2nd round draft pick (but retention of 3rd) AND 2 mil cap penalty
5 days late: Dismissal of GM, forfeiture of 1st owned 3rd round pick (but retention of 2nd rounder), 2 mil cap penalty.
If a team doesn't have a pick in the appropriate round, the pick penalty is deferred to the following season.

DeletedAtUserRequest · 06-08-2019, 02:40 PM

06-08-2019, 02:36 PMztevans Wrote:
06-08-2019, 02:33 PMMike Izzy Wrote: Well there was issues with teams not setting lineups in the past and it was discussed in the channel... a rule was put in maybe a handful of years back about giving a team a 2nd chance if they missed a lineup. I believe thats the current rule in place. i dot think its fair to IIHF HO to discuss actual policy in media...but since its out here i think wed be better off if we set a hard date for lineups and if that nation ignores the 10 tags they get to submit a roster and its not due to an emergency (it being simply cause they didnt want to add it) they should be removed that season. im not 100% on this but i would guess that In the SHL if a GM doesnt set a lineup all year for non emergency issues) i got to believe they would be asked to resign no? .. should be the same here i believe.

Obviously most of these punishments don't apply for IIHF, but I'll pull a Tomen and quote the rulebook to cite the SHL stance on failure to meet GM deadlines

Quote:Other Offseason Duties:
1 day late on offseason duties being completed: Forfeiture of 1st owned 3rd round draft pick
2 days late: Forfeiture of 1st owned 2nd round draft pick (but retention of 3rd)
3 days late: Forfeiture of 1st owned 2nd round draft pick (but retention of 3rd) AND 1 mil cap penalty
4 days late: Forfeiture of 1st owned 2nd round draft pick (but retention of 3rd) AND 2 mil cap penalty
5 days late: Dismissal of GM, forfeiture of 1st owned 3rd round pick (but retention of 2nd rounder), 2 mil cap penalty.
If a team doesn't have a pick in the appropriate round, the pick penalty is deferred to the following season.

yeah theres a hard stance on this issue on the SHL. per my above...A think a good IIHF policy on this is to set a hard date for lineups, have those lineups looked at and denied or approved with time to correct any issues so we put forth the best possible tourny ... and if theres a nation that ignores the 10 tags they get to submit a roster and its not due to an emergency (it being simply cause they didnt want to add it) they should be removed that season.

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***artermis*** · 06-08-2019, 02:47 PM

06-08-2019, 02:33 PMMike Izzy Wrote: Zach: "I'd also like to see these laws you speak of that allegedly give free passes to unresponsive Federation Heads, because they aren't in the IIHF Rulebook, and I assume that would also be a conversation for the IIHF HO."

Well there was issues with teams not setting lineups in the past and it was discussed in the channel... a rule was put in maybe a handful of years back about giving GMs a 2nd seasonto set one if they missed a lineup. I believe thats the current rule in place. i dot think its fair to IIHF HO to discuss actual policy in media...but since its out here i think wed be better off if we set a hard date for lineups, have those lineups looked at and denied or approved so we put forth the best possible tourny possible... and if theres a nation ignores the 10 tags they get to submit a roster and its not due to an emergency (it being simply cause they didnt want to add it) they should be removed that season. im not 100% on this but i would guess that In the SHL if a GM doesnt set a lineup all year for non emergency issues) i got to believe they would be asked to resign no? .. should be the same here i believe.

It should be noted that we do have a hard date for lineups (unless you mean a compete removal of the 2nd consecutive season rule), and no one has failed to submit a roster for this tournament.

Also, the SHL is a longer timeframe and is much easier to judge if a GM is AWOL or not, for the IIHF and it's short nature, not to mention Sami's submission of a roster, it is more difficult to implement, but if he does not return soon I think it safe to say we will be looking for a new German Fed Head.

ztevans · 06-08-2019, 02:51 PM

06-08-2019, 02:47 PMartermis Wrote: It should be noted that we do have a hard date for lineups (unless you mean a compete removal of the 2nd consecutive season rule), and no one has failed to submit a roster for this tournament.

Also, the SHL is a longer timeframe and is much easier to judge if a GM is AWOL or not, for the IIHF and it's short nature, not to mention Sami's submission of a roster, it is more difficult to implement, but if he does not return soon I think it safe to say we will be looking for a new German Fed Head.

To clarify publicly on this point per conversation with Arty, particularly for listeners of the podcast (and I'll edit this into the OP as well), Germany submitted a roster, just in the wrong place, which is why I didn't see it. They are only guilty of not submitting lines and forum incompetence, and frankly we're all guilty of forum incompetence on this maze of a site at least once in our lives.

DeletedAtUserRequest · 06-08-2019, 02:59 PM

06-08-2019, 02:51 PMztevans Wrote:
06-08-2019, 02:47 PMartermis Wrote: It should be noted that we do have a hard date for lineups (unless you mean a compete removal of the 2nd consecutive season rule), and no one has failed to submit a roster for this tournament.

Also, the SHL is a longer timeframe and is much easier to judge if a GM is AWOL or not, for the IIHF and it's short nature, not to mention Sami's submission of a roster, it is more difficult to implement, but if he does not return soon I think it safe to say we will be looking for a new German Fed Head.

To clarify publicly on this point per conversation with Arty, particularly for listeners of the podcast (and I'll edit this into the OP as well), Germany submitted a roster, just in the wrong place, which is why I didn't see it. They are only guilty of not submitting lines and forum incompetence, and frankly we're all guilty of forum incompetence on this maze of a site at least once in our lives.

for the record, my take on the rule was a generic feeling on the topic and wasnt calling out Germany specifically. didnt even realize they missed it until it was mentioned in the channel. anyway.. good topic Zach! your pod brings out the heat!

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