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jRuutu · 05-03-2020, 07:35 AM

Not enough, the fact that this case happens during the playoffs should mean harsh and tough punishment. The updated version does not feel like one.

Players are in regression, maybe some are planning on retiring, leaving on FA etc, the team who gets cheated on might not just come back to the same place next year. So simply - the team that cheats should be prevented from competing, I don´t know how you do it, but I don´t really buy the ´dangerous precedent´, as many have said already, this is a pretty cheap price to pay for winning a playoff series. Not just game seven in the finals, but a playoff series. Trading the future for ´rentals´ to win now is not that uncommon, this is not that different.

We already read that TDZ is stepping down from NOLA co-GM role, for fun lets assume JK is thinking about it as well, we now could have two GM´s who are not going to be there next year, what stops them from now doing this again? Yea they get fired, but nothing to lose. Who is going to run the team then? Could it be the coaches who already cheated? What stops them from doing this again? Fair to assume that they are not going to be the GM´s if a fair selection process takes place after season, since they already cheated, so they have nothing to lose either.

How many teams and management groups doing this exact same thing would lead to harsher penalties? Not everybody will cheat of course, but would be foolish to think there are not teams who now have it as an option, they saw what happens, which is nothing. This is nothing.

**_Blitz_** · 05-03-2020, 07:37 AM

05-03-2020, 07:09 AMgolden_apricot Wrote: So at that point there likley should have been some sort of stop on place.

That was kind of my thought too.

I think moving forward, the move for any requests and/or anything that seems off for any reason to the simmer should be a pause to save and backup the files. During the Playoffs, I imagine there's at least one HO member available watching the stream to review anything suspect. During the regular season, it could be checked a little more leisurely.

Another safeguard that might be worth investigating would be methods of deleting individual game data for re-simming. Perhaps to the end that when a day is saved but not progressed, a game can be deleted and replayed without damaging the other stats and results.

*Wally* · 05-03-2020, 07:52 AM

05-03-2020, 01:51 AMAvakael Wrote:
05-03-2020, 12:48 AMWally Wrote: Wait can you remove Buffalo Hunter... for the love....

The hell is that?

This hangover is not cool. Anyways I think I meant ‘Do you know how to remove Buffalo Hunter’ from under my name thing?

jRuutu · 05-03-2020, 08:03 AM

05-03-2020, 05:59 AMmajesiu Wrote:
05-02-2020, 06:21 PM39alaska39 Wrote: I do appreciate your addressing of my concern, but no offense, every GM in this league would eat a late second forfeiture, a small cap penalty, and a loss of pay to get a win in Challenge Cup Game 7

So instead of punishment circle jerk this site has become recently (well, more than in the past at least) maybe let's find a way to prevent such infractions, especially since you and some other GMs basically seem to treat such punishment as an invitation to breaking those rules in the future if stakes are high enough.

If such arbitrary roster/lines/playing time etc. rules exist than create a way to prevent them. E.g. have a league job checking lines validity either by adding that to simmer responsibility before each sim or creating a separate position - not exactly sure if GMs directly upload lines to the server or some proxy inputs them into a file so I'll leave exact implementation out. Then if the illegal change is submitted it's not put in the sim (or reverted to previous legal one), GMs get notified and we could avoid such shitshows.

What if someone wants to cheat, they see the punishment and still want to do it. The ´line guard´ spots the clear errors in lines and tells the team/management group to change the lines, but they refuse, they want to cheat.

What then? Auto lines - punish the management and move forward? What kind of punishment is handed out for trying to cheat, but in the end nothing actually happened? You would think it´s pretty heavy, but then again when you look at the punishment here, how can it be tougher than something that actually happened?

What if they change the lines after ´line guard´ spot the errors, is there still going to be a punishment? How do you know if it was a honest mistake or a clear try to cheat?

Samsung virtual assistant · 05-03-2020, 08:06 AM

LIFE

***golden_apricot*** · 05-03-2020, 08:56 AM

05-03-2020, 07:37 AMCapt_Blitzkrieg Wrote:
05-03-2020, 07:09 AMgolden_apricot Wrote: So at that point there likley should have been some sort of stop on place.

That was kind of my thought too.

I think moving forward, the move for any requests and/or anything that seems off for any reason to the simmer should be a pause to save and backup the files. During the Playoffs, I imagine there's at least one HO member available watching the stream to review anything suspect. During the regular season, it could be checked a little more leisurely.

Another safeguard that might be worth investigating would be methods of deleting individual game data for re-simming. Perhaps to the end that when a day is saved but not progressed, a game can be deleted and replayed without damaging the other stats and results.

yes you could skip games that have somewhat suspect lines and move on with the rest of the day, and then not advance the file right away. There is no method of deleting individual game data sadly or resiming specif games that does not affect other games. There is an option to complete the series on a different file and then "force results" for the rest of the series by making the losing team absolute garbage, but that is sketchy. essentially once the game is played you are screwed.

GeckoeyGecko · 05-03-2020, 09:15 AM

05-03-2020, 07:09 AMgolden_apricot Wrote:
05-03-2020, 05:59 AMmajesiu Wrote: So instead of punishment circle jerk this site has become recently (well, more than in the past at least) maybe let's find a way to prevent such infractions, especially since you and some other GMs basically seem to treat such punishment as an invitation to breaking those rules in the future if stakes are high enough.

If such arbitrary roster/lines/playing time etc. rules exist than create a way to prevent them. E.g. have a league job checking lines validity either by adding that to simmer responsibility before each sim or creating a separate position - not exactly sure if GMs directly upload lines to the server or some proxy inputs them into a file so I'll leave exact implementation out. Then if the illegal change is submitted it's not put in the sim (or reverted to previous legal one), GMs get notified and we could avoid such shitshows.

Lines are uploaded via ftp (or done manually if you hate JR or Kalakar). This blew up to a large extent because the ftp upload for game 1 had the center removed from all lines and then on stream jr added the player to the 4th line as requested by NOLA. So at that point there likley should have been some sort of stop on place. Now this would not have changed game 1 where no one saw the lines. Checking lines for 16 teams prior to each sim is tedious but is an option that o would be okay with in the playoffs where the teams are reduced to 8 or fewer. That said, if a gm isn't able to be reached and they have a line error what do you do? I think is not a bad idea but there are kinks that would have to be worked out.

whats ftp?

***sve7en*** · 05-03-2020, 09:17 AM

05-03-2020, 09:15 AMGeckoeyGecko Wrote:
05-03-2020, 07:09 AMgolden_apricot Wrote: Lines are uploaded via ftp (or done manually if you hate JR or Kalakar). This blew up to a large extent because the ftp upload for game 1 had the center removed from all lines and then on stream jr added the player to the 4th line as requested by NOLA. So at that point there likley should have been some sort of stop on place. Now this would not have changed game 1 where no one saw the lines. Checking lines for 16 teams prior to each sim is tedious but is an option that o would be okay with in the playoffs where the teams are reduced to 8 or fewer. That said, if a gm isn't able to be reached and they have a line error what do you do? I think is not a bad idea but there are kinks that would have to be worked out.

whats ftp?

File Transfer Protocol.

Like Filezila, it's uploading or downloading things without the web browser.

**_Blitz_** · 05-03-2020, 09:18 AM

05-03-2020, 09:15 AMGeckoeyGecko Wrote: whats ftp?

FTP, as I recall, stands for File Transfer Protocol. It's basically cloud transfer of files.

BarnabasCollins · 05-03-2020, 09:44 AM

Well since Spartan didn't come through for you guys here's a recipe for you, my chili recipe. The bacon makes it pretty damn tasty if I do say so myself.

2 lbs Hamburger
1 lb Bacon
1 large Onion
2 large cans Crushed Tomatoes
1 large can Stewed Tomatoes
2 cloves Chopped Garlic
2 cans Chili Beans
2 Tbsp Worcestershire
2 Tbsp Hot Sauce
1 tsp Crushed Red Pepper
2 tsp Cumin
½ tsp Cayenne Pepper
2-3 Tbsp Chili Powder
1 can Beer

1. Dice bacon, brown in a large pot
till crisp, drain most of grease, dice
onion and fry with bacon till onions
start to brown.

2. Add hamburger, brown with
bacon and onions, drain grease.

3. Add garlic, cook 2 minutes. Add
Worcestershire, hot sauce, red
pepper, cumin, cayenne and chili
powder, stir in thoroughly to meat
mixture, cook 2 minutes.

4. Pour in beer to deglaze the pot,
making sure to scrape all the
goodies of the bottom of pot.

5. Add the cans of beans and
tomatoes now, mix well and simmer
low for a couple of hours.

Looks pretty close to this

[Image: 5087748.jpg]

Weretarantula · 05-03-2020, 09:48 AM

05-03-2020, 09:44 AMBarnabasCollins Wrote: Well since Spartan didn't come through for you guys here's a recipe for you, my chili recipe. The bacon makes it pretty damn tasty if I do say so myself.

2 lbs Hamburger
1 lb Bacon
1 large Onion
2 large cans Crushed Tomatoes
1 large can Stewed Tomatoes
2 cloves Chopped Garlic
2 cans Chili Beans
2 Tbsp Worcestershire
2 Tbsp Hot Sauce
1 tsp Crushed Red Pepper
2 tsp Cumin
½ tsp Cayenne Pepper
2-3 Tbsp Chili Powder
1 can Beer

1. Dice bacon, brown in a large pot
till crisp, drain most of grease, dice
onion and fry with bacon till onions
start to brown.

2. Add hamburger, brown with
bacon and onions, drain grease.

3. Add garlic, cook 2 minutes. Add
Worcestershire, hot sauce, red
pepper, cumin, cayenne and chili
powder, stir in thoroughly to meat
mixture, cook 2 minutes.

4. Pour in beer to deglaze the pot,
making sure to scrape all the
goodies of the bottom of pot.

5. Add the cans of beans and
tomatoes now, mix well and simmer
low for a couple of hours.

Looks pretty close to this

hell yeah

***Faelax*** · 05-03-2020, 09:53 AM

05-03-2020, 09:44 AMBarnabasCollins Wrote: Well since Spartan didn't come through for you guys here's a recipe for you, my chili recipe. The bacon makes it pretty damn tasty if I do say so myself.

2 lbs Hamburger
1 lb Bacon
1 large Onion
2 large cans Crushed Tomatoes
1 large can Stewed Tomatoes
2 cloves Chopped Garlic
2 cans Chili Beans
2 Tbsp Worcestershire
2 Tbsp Hot Sauce
1 tsp Crushed Red Pepper
2 tsp Cumin
½ tsp Cayenne Pepper
2-3 Tbsp Chili Powder
1 can Beer

1. Dice bacon, brown in a large pot
till crisp, drain most of grease, dice
onion and fry with bacon till onions
start to brown.

2. Add hamburger, brown with
bacon and onions, drain grease.

3. Add garlic, cook 2 minutes. Add
Worcestershire, hot sauce, red
pepper, cumin, cayenne and chili
powder, stir in thoroughly to meat
mixture, cook 2 minutes.

4. Pour in beer to deglaze the pot,
making sure to scrape all the
goodies of the bottom of pot.

5. Add the cans of beans and
tomatoes now, mix well and simmer
low for a couple of hours.

Looks pretty close to this

My man

GeckoeyGecko · 05-03-2020, 10:04 AM

05-03-2020, 09:44 AMBarnabasCollins Wrote: Well since Spartan didn't come through for you guys here's a recipe for you, my chili recipe. The bacon makes it pretty damn tasty if I do say so myself.

2 lbs Hamburger
1 lb Bacon
1 large Onion
2 large cans Crushed Tomatoes
1 large can Stewed Tomatoes
2 cloves Chopped Garlic
2 cans Chili Beans
2 Tbsp Worcestershire
2 Tbsp Hot Sauce
1 tsp Crushed Red Pepper
2 tsp Cumin
½ tsp Cayenne Pepper
2-3 Tbsp Chili Powder
1 can Beer

1. Dice bacon, brown in a large pot
till crisp, drain most of grease, dice
onion and fry with bacon till onions
start to brown.

2. Add hamburger, brown with
bacon and onions, drain grease.

3. Add garlic, cook 2 minutes. Add
Worcestershire, hot sauce, red
pepper, cumin, cayenne and chili
powder, stir in thoroughly to meat
mixture, cook 2 minutes.

4. Pour in beer to deglaze the pot,
making sure to scrape all the
goodies of the bottom of pot.

5. Add the cans of beans and
tomatoes now, mix well and simmer
low for a couple of hours.

Looks pretty close to this

fuck im hungry

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 05-03-2020, 10:16 AM

Thank you for taking the time to revisit this and for listening to some of the overwhelming public feedback. However, I still think that your revisions mostly miss the actual core of the problem and the source of most peoples unhappiness.

The problem with the original punishment wasn't just the severity of it, but what it was aimed at: It was solely aimed at the future yet did absolutely nothing to rectify the direct fallout of the rulebreak in the playoff series where it occured. And just making the fine higher or adding extra pick penalties does nothing to change that. You could ramp up the punishment even more and make it absolutely crazy, like taking away three 1st rounders and a 10 million cap penalty, which would cripple NOLA for the future yet still doesn't adress the playoffs themselves and help fix the situation for LAP, the team that got screwed over.

I would say that the general severity of the punishment is fine after your revisions, I'm not calling for it to be higher and for them to lose even more picks or for people to be fired. But the core issue, the fact that this playoff series has been unfairly manipulated (even if it was accidentally) hasn't been adressed in the slightest, when this is the very first part of the problem that you should have tackled. Especially since it sets a dangerous precedent for the future, if this is gonna serve as the new benchmark for line/roster transgressions in the playoffs.

05-02-2020, 05:58 PMnour Wrote:
Code:
Well that's a cheap price to pay for an illegitimate playoff win (and for trying it in another game too where it didn't quite work). Not even a player suspension or forcing them into auto-lines for a game or two, instead just a small fine for someone with an 80M bank account? And even if they were caught doing this again, the punishment would just be a 2nd? Wow. Especially since this wasn't a misclick or something but a very deliberate tactical choice as they admitted themselves, that they only excuse through ignorance of the rules.
@RomanesEuntDomus

This one's got a few things that we hope the revision addresses, but there are some points I do wanna answer. Firstly, we opted against a player punishment because in the case of management infractions, the precedent per the rulebook and per past cases has always been that the management group faces some combination of pick punishments, salary cap fines, pay forfeiture and probationary periods. We've always reserved player suspensions for individual member/player sim and conduct infractions, and handling punishments in this manner has always been understood in the past. Secondly, we did discuss some way of altering New Orleans from an in-sim perspective, but we all, Head Office Members and Owners alike, expressed a serious worry about the precedent it sets to deal punishments that take control away from GMs in relation to future punishments. We discussed it for a really long time but really felt it was a dangerous precedent to set going forward.

Quoting this part to elaborate on my point a bit more. Simply said, if the precedent in the past has been to only use ineffective punishments for management infractions, then it's time to change that and set a new precedent. I have always been a proponent of player suspensions as a broadly used tool of discipline in this league, as I think it is one of the most effective ones we have, much more so than fines or forum bans.

And in this specific situation, it would have been a particularly good fit. A team got a direct advantage for two games by breaking a rule, so giving them a direct disadvantage for 2-4 games by suspending either the GM or the Coaches players would have been a good surgical way to adress this. Or if you don't want to go that route, then forcing the team that broke the rule to play an equivalent number of games (or twice the number maybe) with auto-lines would have been another good method as well. It doesn't mean that they will automatically lose all those games just as their rulebreak didn't guarantee them two wins, but it hinders their chances for a while to make up for the advantage they got earlier.

I think those are some very effective tools in our toolbox that, if you don't want to use them in this case, you should at least consider applying in the future. Otherwise the potential gains from "forgetting" certain rules in a crucial time in the playoffs will be much higher than the loss when you get caught.

***Gwdjohnson*** · 05-03-2020, 10:40 AM

05-03-2020, 09:44 AMBarnabasCollins Wrote: Well since Spartan didn't come through for you guys here's a recipe for you, my chili recipe. The bacon makes it pretty damn tasty if I do say so myself.

2 lbs Hamburger
1 lb Bacon
1 large Onion
2 large cans Crushed Tomatoes
1 large can Stewed Tomatoes
2 cloves Chopped Garlic
2 cans Chili Beans
2 Tbsp Worcestershire
2 Tbsp Hot Sauce
1 tsp Crushed Red Pepper
2 tsp Cumin
½ tsp Cayenne Pepper
2-3 Tbsp Chili Powder
1 can Beer

1. Dice bacon, brown in a large pot
till crisp, drain most of grease, dice
onion and fry with bacon till onions
start to brown.

2. Add hamburger, brown with
bacon and onions, drain grease.

3. Add garlic, cook 2 minutes. Add
Worcestershire, hot sauce, red
pepper, cumin, cayenne and chili
powder, stir in thoroughly to meat
mixture, cook 2 minutes.

4. Pour in beer to deglaze the pot,
making sure to scrape all the
goodies of the bottom of pot.

5. Add the cans of beans and
tomatoes now, mix well and simmer
low for a couple of hours.

Looks pretty close to this

Fuck yeah love making homemade chili this looks great

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