09-23-2020, 02:52 PMjfisherr Wrote: Thank you for doing what I was too lazy to and putting this situation into words. I think HO should allow a one time position swap for goalies to become skaters.
This would likely increase player retention, as first-gens that create as goalies would actually have a pathway to future playing time besides getting 6-10 games as a backup every season. This would also help alleviate the lack of depth we have at certain positions (defencemen currently) that are resulting in a number of teams fielding sub-500 TPE IA defencemen.
HO should also be doing a better job at advertising which positions are actually needed. Many first time creates don’t understand that the goalie market is already flush with elite talent.
However, I do see some pushback in this suggestion from GMs and HO. I can see GMs, both SHL and SMJHL complaining about allowing free position swaps as it could screw up their roster in the short term and long term. Allowing these position swaps should thus only occur during the offseason so teams can plan around this. Additionally, there could be some possibilities that a user creates as a goalie in order to tank his draft stock, allowing a team to get additional prospects, knowing that this user is going to position swap from goalie in the future. A rule change must then account for the following;
1. Goalie saturation
2. Team planning
3. Potential abuse.
To counter these, at the present I think HO should implement something like allow any current goalies a free one time position switch. This would likely immediately alleviate the current goalie logjam.
Moving forward however, all future created goalies should only be allowed to position switch in the time between the end of their rookie season, and the time they get drafted into the SHL. This allows both SMJHL and SHL GMs to plan for the prospect’s position switch, and would prevent any abuse of the system through draft stock manipulation.
Ideally in conjunction with these rules, HO would then implement a “Position Need Tracker” of sorts, allowing first-gens and recreates to accurately assess which positions are truly needed, allowing these new users to make informed decisions when making their player.
Feel free to make any suggestions or anything, tagging @honkerrs and @PremierBromanov to get some good dialogue ongoing.
Great wording and suggestions fish. Exactly why I didn't want to propose any changes because I'm not good at wording things but I think you outlined some great possibilities. I agree with @Ragnartoo that we need a position tracker honestly. Most other leagues have it, so why shouldn't we??
I will agree that it players could take advantage of this situation in the draft but personally I think it is worth it still. In other leagues you can swap from like Relief Pitcher to Starter and vice versa. Maybe no one can swap to goalie but goalies can swap to skaters sort of thing. Anyways, hope smart people take the data and make some rules =]
09-23-2020, 02:52 PMjfisherr Wrote: Thank you for doing what I was too lazy to and putting this situation into words. I think HO should allow a one time position swap for goalies to become skaters.
This would likely increase player retention, as first-gens that create as goalies would actually have a pathway to future playing time besides getting 6-10 games as a backup every season. This would also help alleviate the lack of depth we have at certain positions (defencemen currently) that are resulting in a number of teams fielding sub-500 TPE IA defencemen.
HO should also be doing a better job at advertising which positions are actually needed. Many first time creates don’t understand that the goalie market is already flush with elite talent.
However, I do see some pushback in this suggestion from GMs and HO. I can see GMs, both SHL and SMJHL complaining about allowing free position swaps as it could screw up their roster in the short term and long term. Allowing these position swaps should thus only occur during the offseason so teams can plan around this. Additionally, there could be some possibilities that a user creates as a goalie in order to tank his draft stock, allowing a team to get additional prospects, knowing that this user is going to position swap from goalie in the future. A rule change must then account for the following;
1. Goalie saturation
2. Team planning
3. Potential abuse.
To counter these, at the present I think HO should implement something like allow any current goalies a free one time position switch. This would likely immediately alleviate the current goalie logjam.
Moving forward however, all future created goalies should only be allowed to position switch in the time between the end of their rookie season, and the time they get drafted into the SHL. This allows both SMJHL and SHL GMs to plan for the prospect’s position switch, and would prevent any abuse of the system through draft stock manipulation.
Ideally in conjunction with these rules, HO would then implement a “Position Need Tracker” of sorts, allowing first-gens and recreates to accurately assess which positions are truly needed, allowing these new users to make informed decisions when making their player.
Feel free to make any suggestions or anything, tagging @honkerrs and @PremierBromanov to get some good dialogue ongoing.
Quality suggestions across the board. Outstanding work, fish. <3
Sigs by Me, Merica, High Stick King, Rum_Ham, Jess, vulfzilla, enigmatic, and Carpy
09-23-2020, 02:22 PMGwdjohnson Wrote: ISFL seems to do fine allowing wacky shit like a quarterback switching to offensive lineman so I don't think it would hurt too much aside from maybe record keeping on the careers of people who do? I'd take that hit to not screw over goalie creates who have basically no chance of a long term career starter spot.
I like this. Back in the NSFL (pre-ISFL name change) I was a QB that moved to WR during pre-season due to the positional logjam. So possibly something similar where the user can do a one-time per career (maybe like IIHF positional switch to a skater. It's allowed for F to go D and vice-sersa but goalies are just... stuck at the position. And sure they can recreate in a new position, but that's TPE lost and time wasted for their effort.
charlieconway Wrote:Mandate at least 12 games a season for backups. Also, consider having them on their own contract tier system, so we don't get to the twisted (and IMO inevitable) point where teams will be hurt for having a high TPE starter.
There aren't enough games in the season to warrant that, maybe if we had 60,70 or 82 games then you might have a case for even up to 20 backup games. Anyone who creates a goalie already gets less career games than a skater. I understand we're trying to emulate the NHL but at the end of the day fun is the more important aspect. Watching a player play significantly less than others is just a turn-off for anyone creating at the position.
I don't imagine this will be the last time we see this either. For a while, there was an absolute need for goalies, so goalies were created. Now, since they're all mostly active, we have a logjam...a pretty significant one too.
09-23-2020, 03:04 PMZoone16 Wrote: I understand we're trying to emulate the NHL but at the end of the day fun is the more important aspect. Watching a player play significantly less than others is just a turn-off for anyone creating at the position.
Exactly. Had I know I'd be backing up another goalie for my first two seasons of SMJHL, spending max time in SMJHL, then probably backing up a goalie for the first three or four seasons at least in the SHL, I would've made a forward. But now I've sunk a season's worth of work and ~$15m toward TPE for my goalie, so I don't just want to retire and recreate.
Sigs by Me, Merica, High Stick King, Rum_Ham, Jess, vulfzilla, enigmatic, and Carpy
09-23-2020, 03:17 PM(This post was last modified: 09-23-2020, 03:19 PM by Zoone16.)
09-23-2020, 03:07 PMRagnar Wrote:
09-23-2020, 03:04 PMZoone16 Wrote: I understand we're trying to emulate the NHL but at the end of the day fun is the more important aspect. Watching a player play significantly less than others is just a turn-off for anyone creating at the position.
Exactly. Had I know I'd be backing up another goalie for my first two seasons of SMJHL, spending max time in SMJHL, then probably backing up a goalie for the first three or four seasons at least in the SHL, I would've made a forward. But now I've sunk a season's worth of work and ~$15m toward TPE for my goalie, so I don't just want to retire and recreate.
Yeah. My overall rules suggestion would be to give a once per career position swap to goalies that have never played a single SHL game. If F & D can swap once in their career, why are goalies just stuck dealing with it.
QUICK EDIT: this rule would be similar to IIHF rules where players can do a one-time nation swap if they haven't played a game for their nation.
09-23-2020, 02:52 PMhonkerrs Wrote: eh, maybe I didn't get my point across good enough but what you're suggesting at first is kind of the point of why we need to let goalies swap. But the point is that there are getting to be too many good users as goalies so that wouldn't be any fun for anyone trying to win awards. Since some teams might split time to keep users engaged, then maybe a couple teams have an IA backup so they can play their active a lot to get all the awards. Just doing contract tiers won't help the "funness" factor right now
09-23-2020, 03:04 PMZoone16 Wrote: There aren't enough games in the season to warrant that, maybe if we had 60,70 or 82 games then you might have a case for even up to 20 backup games. Anyone who creates a goalie already gets less career games than a skater. I understand we're trying to emulate the NHL but at the end of the day fun is the more important aspect. Watching a player play significantly less than others is just a turn-off for anyone creating at the position.
Fair enough, I didn't consider enough the impact more backup games would have on starter engagement. As a skater I think I take it for granted that every game your team plays will have you in it, goalies don't get the same luxury and my suggestion would make the situation even worse.
09-23-2020, 02:52 PMjfisherr Wrote: Thank you for doing what I was too lazy to and putting this situation into words. I think HO should allow a one time position swap for goalies to become skaters.
This would likely increase player retention, as first-gens that create as goalies would actually have a pathway to future playing time besides getting 6-10 games as a backup every season. This would also help alleviate the lack of depth we have at certain positions (defencemen currently) that are resulting in a number of teams fielding sub-500 TPE IA defencemen.
HO should also be doing a better job at advertising which positions are actually needed. Many first time creates don’t understand that the goalie market is already flush with elite talent.
However, I do see some pushback in this suggestion from GMs and HO. I can see GMs, both SHL and SMJHL complaining about allowing free position swaps as it could screw up their roster in the short term and long term. Allowing these position swaps should thus only occur during the offseason so teams can plan around this. Additionally, there could be some possibilities that a user creates as a goalie in order to tank his draft stock, allowing a team to get additional prospects, knowing that this user is going to position swap from goalie in the future. A rule change must then account for the following;
1. Goalie saturation
2. Team planning
3. Potential abuse.
To counter these, at the present I think HO should implement something like allow any current goalies a free one time position switch. This would likely immediately alleviate the current goalie logjam.
Moving forward however, all future created goalies should only be allowed to position switch in the time between the end of their rookie season, and the time they get drafted into the SHL. This allows both SMJHL and SHL GMs to plan for the prospect’s position switch, and would prevent any abuse of the system through draft stock manipulation.
Ideally in conjunction with these rules, HO would then implement a “Position Need Tracker” of sorts, allowing first-gens and recreates to accurately assess which positions are truly needed, allowing these new users to make informed decisions when making their player.
Feel free to make any suggestions or anything, tagging @honkerrs and @PremierBromanov to get some good dialogue ongoing.
Great wording and suggestions fish. Exactly why I didn't want to propose any changes because I'm not good at wording things but I think you outlined some great possibilities. I agree with @Ragnartoo that we need a position tracker honestly. Most other leagues have it, so why shouldn't we??
I will agree that it players could take advantage of this situation in the draft but personally I think it is worth it still. In other leagues you can swap from like Relief Pitcher to Starter and vice versa. Maybe no one can swap to goalie but goalies can swap to skaters sort of thing. Anyways, hope smart people take the data and make some rules =]
Yeah of course, I just think GMs will pushback as they could have a plan for the future in place that could get blown up by a goalie wanting to position switch. This acts as a compromise between allowing no switches and allowing mass switches. However, if GMs have no concerns about this, then let’s just allow free position changes for all goalies in the SMJHL.
09-23-2020, 03:00 PMhonkerrs Wrote: Great wording and suggestions fish. Exactly why I didn't want to propose any changes because I'm not good at wording things but I think you outlined some great possibilities. I agree with @Ragnartoo that we need a position tracker honestly. Most other leagues have it, so why shouldn't we??
I will agree that it players could take advantage of this situation in the draft but personally I think it is worth it still. In other leagues you can swap from like Relief Pitcher to Starter and vice versa. Maybe no one can swap to goalie but goalies can swap to skaters sort of thing. Anyways, hope smart people take the data and make some rules =]
Yeah of course, I just think GMs will pushback as they could have a plan for the future in place that could get blown up by a goalie wanting to position switch. This acts as a compromise between allowing no switches and allowing mass switches. However, if GMs have no concerns about this, then let’s just allow free position changes for all goalies in the SMJHL.
Maybe first pass through when this is implemented you have to have both GM and Player sign off on the swap to happen. So if a GM really views the goalie as essential it wouldn't screw their vision. Honestly anything allowing me to swap I'm gonna basically be down for because I see no upside to myself sticking to a goalie at the moment other than I just spent time building him so might as well keep going for "fun".
09-23-2020, 03:22 PMjfisherr Wrote: Yeah of course, I just think GMs will pushback as they could have a plan for the future in place that could get blown up by a goalie wanting to position switch. This acts as a compromise between allowing no switches and allowing mass switches. However, if GMs have no concerns about this, then let’s just allow free position changes for all goalies in the SMJHL.
Maybe first pass through when this is implemented you have to have both GM and Player sign off on the swap to happen. So if a GM really views the goalie as essential it wouldn't screw their vision. Honestly anything allowing me to swap I'm gonna basically be down for because I see no upside to myself sticking to a goalie at the moment other than I just spent time building him so might as well keep going for "fun".
Having GM and player approval could be the way to go. @Zoone16 any thoughts?
This is a great article and I have a few comments.
First - This is always how it is. When I created I was told not to create a goalie because it’s always saturated and you have to out compete others if you ever want to be a starter. I assure you that if you stick with it, you will.
Second - There is no way in hell I’ll be switching positions at this point. I have literally worked my ass off for over a year to get to where I am now and so help me God I will finally get a chance to enjoy it before I call it a career.
Third - I will never, ever, be a goalie again after I retire. Fuck the stress that it brings and how long it takes to be good.
09-23-2020, 03:34 PM(This post was last modified: 09-23-2020, 03:38 PM by RomanesEuntDomus.)
09-23-2020, 02:43 PMcharlieconway Wrote: Mandate at least 12 games a season for backups. Also, consider having them on their own contract tier system, so we don't get to the twisted (and IMO inevitable) point where teams will be hurt for having a high TPE starter.
We should definitely have something prepared for a potential goalie logjam but let's not get too aheard of ourselves either. Right now this concerns exactly one player who has done a lot to alienate various people around the league in the past. I would argue that there would absolutely be room to fit him insomewhere, it's the willingness to make room for him that is missing around the league. And while I don't really have any issues with him personally I think it's fine that this situation exists, that there actually are consequences for once regarding bad personal conduct. It's somewhat unfair that it hits one guy now when so many people have gotten away with similar or worse stuff in the past, but I for one don't think we need to overhaul a huge part of the league because of one insular case.
I quoted charlieconway because I think his suggestions are the ones that would actually do the most to fix potential problem without going for a complete overhaul. The OP brought up some good points too as did fisherr but honestly, I don't think the situation is as bad as a lot of people make it sound right now. It's not that unusual that there are more Goalies in the pipeline somewhere than we will eventually have room for, the same is true for Skaters after all but during their journey through juniors we are bound to lose some people. We couldn't fit in all those Skaters either if they all stayec active. But it's good that we actually have more people in juniors now than we will need later at the SHL level, it's a reserve, a buffer that the league needs to not run into shortages.
When looking at honkerss list I don't quite draw the same conclusion as him, because this is what I see:
Teams that have exactly one active goalie (who could, as good as he is, retire or go inactive or ask for a trade at any second, leaving them goalieless):
8/18
BAP
NEW
MIN
TEX
WPG
ATL
NOLA
SEA
Teams in a good spot, with one goalie and one other in the pipeline:
6/18
TOR
LAP
MAN
CGY
HAM
TBB
Teams with an actual logjam (3 or more):
4/18
BUF
SFP
EDM
CHI
This isn't a league-wide logjam.
Almost half the league only has one goalie and only four teams have what could be described as a surplus, but even some of them still have time to marinate some of their goalies in juniors. It could well be that those numbers will change soon with more people coming from juniors but so far this hasn't happened. I would argue that the raw numbers aren't the problem here and that stuff like a goalie-to-skater change isn't really necessary. Although, while I don't like it from an immersion standpoint, it also doesn't really hurt anyone so I probably wouldn't be completely against it either.
The real issue here is the other point that honkerss touched upon, that goalies do not matter (enough) in FHM. This is what we need to take a look at, be it through changes to the goalie update scale or other measures. Also I am a huge proponent of making the backup position or 1A/1B splits more viable, which could be achieved by charlies suggestion of a separate goalie cap and more mandatory back-up games.
09-23-2020, 02:43 PMcharlieconway Wrote: Mandate at least 12 games a season for backups. Also, consider having them on their own contract tier system, so we don't get to the twisted (and IMO inevitable) point where teams will be hurt for having a high TPE starter.
this does nothing, ill play a 200 tpe goalie 12 times, maybe we lose one more game, but probably wont happen
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