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*thiefofcheese* · 05-12-2023, 04:24 PM

I am going to drag this out a bit because it is two times media for draft related topics and I like money, so I apologize in advance. However, I do really have a point to this, even if it is half baked. This topic came up in the locker room discord today and I am sure it is not a new idea but I would like to try to get the wheels turning on this or someone to tell my why this is really a bad idea. And do not forget, I am also using this as a cash grab so gotta talk about something. Just hang in there with me and you will be convinced that this is for the best.

My main point can be summarized quickly: Active first gens should be drafted before recreates. That's it. No caveats. Well not really no caveats because there are a few caveats, but almost no caveats. I will go with "just a few caveats"

I hear it already "ToC, why would we want to do that? And how could we do that? "

To the first question I think it comes down to retention. We are obviously already retaining these recreates because, well they recreated. And what first gen wouldn't be extremely happy to go 8th overall compared to 20th? Yes it is a little artificial, but I think the pro outweighs that.

To the second question - I have a very well thought out solution that I started thinking about approximately 20 minutes ago and I am ready for all the hate. I am also going to try to make up solutions to various problems on the fly.

With the goal of having active first gens drafted before recreates, we will have to make some structural changes to how we handle the draft. The very first problem I can think of is

We don't know how many active first gens there will be during a draft

This is probably the hardest cheese for me to cut around this idea. So I am thinking we come to some sort of compromise that can get active first gens early in the draft, but also not truly fragment the draft into 2 separate drafts (as I believe 2 separate drafts breaks the "spirit" a bit, but might be worth discussing). So I am thinking we should restrict round 1 and round 2 to first gens only, regardless of the number of active first gens. Then at round 3 you can start pulling in recreates as well as any remaining first gens as desired.

But you said active first gens should come before recreates, what happens if there are still first gens at the start of round 3?

Well we gotta compromise somewhere, right? I didn't want the draft rounds to be dynamic because then you can't trade with any knowledge of how deep the pool will be. If the pool is deep enough where there are active first gens and they weren't drafted in the first 2 rounds of the draft in this method, they wouldn't be drafted early in the current method anyway. No harm done in my opinion (which is the only one that counts here because I am writing it).

What happens if there are less than 2 rounds of active first gens?

Well this kinda sucks. Initially I just said - draft until they are gone and then skip to round 3, but that COULD mean that earlier teams had more first gens available and get another pick before the lower ordered teams get a chance to pick. It kinda sucks. But I think the alternative is that you keep the round going and start getting recreates, but that could lead to a scenario in which a team with a high standing (low draft order) gets first shot a the #1 recreate and that's worse.

But what about the recreates wanting to be a high draft order?

Again - with the main goal of retention we have already retained these people and they know how it works. Plus a counterpoint to the argument above that it's artificial, if they really care they can compare to how they were drafted compared to other recreates.

Any other pros of this method?

Now each team has 2 different valuable picks to trade. The first rounder and a third rounder. One might even weigh the 3rd round pick over the first round, but it gives teams additional items to use for leverage. We can trade 3 1sts and 3 3rds for the next McZ and really go down in the history books!

Mocks you say? Tell me more

While I got you here lets also talk about the mock. This will likely mess up the current system but, we can all be honest now, the mock drafts suck these days. All GMs want to play their cards close to protect their pick, but then no one really knows what's happening. Even players on their own team rarely get a view into who is top of the list for their team. It is always a "game time decision", "best player available", "we will see" sort of thing and you might get some info 10 minutes before the draft.

We could just do round 1 mock and there will be some obvious front runners, but that makes for more obvious TPE opportunities for us all. I like TPE and I think others do too. Help us HO!

Maybe I am just the old guy yelling at kids now, but I feel like the mocks used to be fun. Now your TPE is greatly dependent on remembering to be online 10 minutes ahead of the draft to copy from someone else. Boo! Hiss!

Obviously this is a fully baked idea and there should be no rebuttals or complaints about implementing something like this. But in the off chance you believe you have an issue with this tell me below and tag @Z0REM please. He specifically told me he wants you to ping him.

***boom*** · 05-12-2023, 04:34 PM

Is retention actually an issue because of this? From what I've seen, if first-gens are active they'll go high anyway.

***HabsFanFromOntario*** · 05-12-2023, 11:26 PM

:tybait:

CementHands · 05-13-2023, 02:30 PM

Interesting take. I offer a counter point in that a setup like this might actually achieve what the stated goal is to attempt at reducing: early churn.
Super active first gen's can and do go high as it is. My first player was taken 53rd (6th round) in the J draft, and 23rd (2nd round) in the SHL draft. Hell, I wasn't even scouted by half of the teams. This helped fuel my fire, and I loved nothing more than moving my way up the draft class rank and building my own little narrative an an over looked prospect.

Now, on my second player I was drafted much higher because I was a known commodity. Again surprised at how many teams I didn't actually have a conversation with - maybe there was an assumption that I'd be gone before they had a pick. Either way, teams knew what they were getting with me as a recreate, I had a full career under my belt. Assuming I go very high in the SHL draft (several first gens were drafted ahead of me under the current system), then a team with a higher pick gets a good known comodity. If they choose to go that route then it helps them build. If the team preforms well and has an engaging LR there is more likely chances to stick around.

I don't know any new users who are upset about being drafted after known commodity recreating users, and keep in mind, these players are likely down for 4 seasons. Almost an entire year before they hit the SHL. Retention is squarely on the shoulders of the SMJHL at that point and that's why it's such an important part of the league. So many players spend so long there, and that's where the league can sink their teeth into these users.

To summarize, I think forcing teams to draft new users first dilutes the prospect pool and bad teams don't have as much of an opportunity to draft a franchise player. It potentially keeps bad teams down and makes it harder for them to retain their own players - I went through several rebuilds on my first player already, I don't really have an appetite to do so again. New users are more likely to go IA before being called up versus users with a proven track record of full careers. It's a risk teams have to weigh. This also leads to draft steals which I think everyone likes being labelled.

***sve7en*** · 05-13-2023, 03:04 PM

*Keven* · 05-13-2023, 04:12 PM

05-13-2023, 02:30 PMCementHands Wrote: Interesting take. I offer a counter point in that a setup like this might actually achieve what the stated goal is to attempt at reducing: early churn.
Super active first gen's can and do go high as it is. My first player was taken 53rd (6th round) in the J draft, and 23rd (2nd round) in the SHL draft. Hell, I wasn't even scouted by half of the teams. This helped fuel my fire, and I loved nothing more than moving my way up the draft class rank and building my own little narrative an an over looked prospect.

Now, on my second player I was drafted much higher because I was a known commodity. Again surprised at how many teams I didn't actually have a conversation with - maybe there was an assumption that I'd be gone before they had a pick. Either way, teams knew what they were getting with me as a recreate, I had a full career under my belt. Assuming I go very high in the SHL draft (several first gens were drafted ahead of me under the current system), then a team with a higher pick gets a good known comodity. If they choose to go that route then it helps them build. If the team preforms well and has an engaging LR there is more likely chances to stick around.

I don't know any new users who are upset about being drafted after known commodity recreating users, and keep in mind, these players are likely down for 4 seasons. Almost an entire year before they hit the SHL. Retention is squarely on the shoulders of the SMJHL at that point and that's why it's such an important part of the league. So many players spend so long there, and that's where the league can sink their teeth into these users.

To summarize, I think forcing teams to draft new users first dilutes the prospect pool and bad teams don't have as much of an opportunity to draft a franchise player. It potentially keeps bad teams down and makes it harder for them to retain their own players - I went through several rebuilds on my first player already, I don't really have an appetite to do so again. New users are more likely to go IA before being called up versus users with a proven track record of full careers. It's a risk teams have to weigh. This also leads to draft steals which I think everyone likes being labelled.

I second everything said here. As much as getting drafted early as a first gen sounds cool, there was something really special and unique about getting drafted 79th in the J and 46th in the SHL. It's unfortunate that I won't be able to replicate that experience with a re-create. If someone enjoys the league, I don't think their draft spot will really change their level of activity or enjoyment. Like Cement said, getting drafted low can even fuel the fire. I think it's much more interesting to put everyone in the same pool and see how first gen picks get sprinkled amongst the known re-creates. If they're artificially separated, then a 10oa pick in the first round won't be as meaningful anymore if whoever goes 10th sees that a bunch of re-creates outclassed them in the 3rd round anyways. I'm glad when ideas like this get brought up, but I'm a firm believer that the current draft system is doing just fine for user retention.

Henrik · 05-14-2023, 12:42 AM

05-13-2023, 04:12 PMKeven Wrote: I second everything said here. As much as getting drafted early as a first gen sounds cool, there was something really special and unique about getting drafted 79th in the J and 46th in the SHL.

Best 3rd rounder of all time!

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