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***ThisSeemsFishy*** · 03-27-2024, 03:21 PM

Started feeling a little thunderdomey in here for a moment

***bluesfan55*** · 03-27-2024, 03:36 PM

i think that question serves a purpose if handled correctly. making it a yes or no thing is, honestly, pretty black and white (which can be good and bad), and while i disagree with people who'd say no to that question, i also think there needs to be an education part in that regard. like if that's a user you really want but they answer no, if you explain the reasoning behind it to them and they get it, that's a good thing; if they don't, just don't draft them in the first place. if they don't want to hear an explanation as to why a pride night for a literal SIMULATION league should exist, they're not for you. but if they disagree and are willing to hear why, just talk to them about it. we need more education in this regard and not public yapping about how both sides are wrong here. the question shouldn't just be used to ostracize people who disagree with you, both publicly and privately, because you just don't get anywhere and it makes both them AND you look bad.

**_Blitz_** · 03-27-2024, 03:48 PM

03-27-2024, 12:24 PMSDCore Wrote: Correct, Ghost is.

Pics or it didn't happen.

***boom*** · 03-27-2024, 03:53 PM

03-27-2024, 03:36 PMbluesfan55 Wrote: i think that question serves a purpose if handled correctly. making it a yes or no thing is, honestly, pretty black and white (which can be good and bad), and while i disagree with people who'd say no to that question, i also think there needs to be an education part in that regard. like if that's a user you really want but they answer no, if you explain the reasoning behind it to them and they get it, that's a good thing; if they don't, just don't draft them in the first place. if they don't want to hear an explanation as to why a pride night for a literal SIMULATION league should exist, they're not for you. but if they disagree and are willing to hear why, just talk to them about it. we need more education in this regard and not public yapping about how both sides are wrong here. the question shouldn't just be used to ostracize people who disagree with you, both publicly and privately, because you just don't get anywhere and it makes both them AND you look bad.

Fair, but at the same time the burden should not be on the people directly being harmed by that ignorance to be the ones to educate that person, since they already have to do that fifty times a year. Which is why privileged allies who aren't the direct target are important for education.

***Sburbine*** · 03-27-2024, 03:56 PM

We were starved of some good copy pasta since the thunderdome closed, glad we're back

**_Blitz_** · 03-27-2024, 04:15 PM

03-27-2024, 12:20 PMscudmuffin19 Wrote: Not really, considering it's all in the same category of trigger issues. Do what you want and ask what you want when scouting. That's your time to ask questions to identify if the player is the perfect LR fit for your team. The league's job with this survey should stop just before that.

I think there's reason to have the question asked in the Interested Prospects activity since the task is meant to ask some of the most common questions that scouts will have, as well as specialty questions from the GMs. Some questions are angled at morality and ethics, most are to give scouts and GMs something to talk about as an introduction. All of the teams use all or most of the questions. On that grounds, if 75% of the teams are willing to put someone on a DND because they answered ANY question so unfavorably, I'd say it's a useful question to the scouting process.

While the questions of politics, race, ethnicity, and creed can provoke similar discomfort to those of sexuality and gender, in this case there is enough difference that I don't think there's cause for concern that the questions would expand to those areas. So much of the weight behind wanting to filter out homophobes and transphobes is rooted two-fold; first is in the NHL's failure to the LGBTQIA+ community in how it has handled it and its opponents, and the second is the relative prominence of people who identify as part of the LGBTQIA+ community in our league. The visibility of the argument makes it a subject that's a lot easier to filter; "Would you wear a hypothetical Pride Night jersey" is easier to get across than something to filter out the racists and faithists. I'm sure if there was an influx of such people, we'd have a BLM-type question in the survey since more people would be asking. If we'd had IP threads following this format 4 years ago, at the height of those protests, there would more than likely have been such a question.

In the end, though, it does require the people asking the questions to have a strong ethical and moral intention against practicing harsher discrimination. I see where that might be an issue down the road. Until there's a way to guarantee that moral fiber isn't a strong determining point to having a fun and safe league and experience, we have to trust the people running the show to not discriminate and to call out when those harsher practices are suggested.

JT3 · 03-27-2024, 04:16 PM

just pulled a walter sobchak card, open for trades

Credits to OrbitingDeath, Tweedle, Incite, Wasty, and Slothfacekilla for sigs!

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trella · 03-27-2024, 04:38 PM

@scudmuffin19 i honestly think your idea of what a forum/league should be is just pretty outdated and its causing some pretty bigoted undertones (some would say overtones) to come out in your posts. you are stuck in the past when you can be bigoted and it be "normal". casual bigotry is not as normalized now, at least on many online spaces, and that is for the better. the purpose of this league is not to provide an open forum where one can say anything they want. this is supposed to be a semi-controlled environment where people can have fun and safely be a part of a community. it would make no sense for teams with lgbtq gms and players to remove this question. and like many others have said, there are still plenty of teams who will allow these types of users on their teams.

it's one thing to complain about a perceived issue on the forum or play devil's advocate. i can't judge you for that because i have done it a lot myself. but to make a post like this about the specific issue you are complaining about is really sus man. the only reason someone would want to complain about something like this is because they are uncomfortable with their own or other people's bigotry being exposed. if you dont have qualms against lgbtq people then wearing the jersey shouldnt be a problem. you could even lie and just say yes if you're that concerned about not limiting your options. but no, you are upset about a question about pride jerseys... for what reason exactly? also, phrasing it as "polarizing questions" and as "controversial" seems very disingenuous to me. you use "polarizing" as if its a bad thing in this circumstance, but the very purpose of the question is exactly to polarize individuals (potentially like yourself) who are too bigoted to even lie on that question. those type of people make this league inherently unsafe for its lgbtq members. also, what the hell is so controversial about pride jerseys? if not for bigotry there would be no controversy.

tldr; there's nothing wrong with those questions and its really sus that you're upset about them

Thanks to @karey and @JSS for the sigs!

Former USA Fed Head, Carolina Kraken Co-GM, Tampa Bay Barracuda GM

hhh81 · 03-27-2024, 05:25 PM

Who will think about the bigots? Will somebody please think about the bigots!

***Vandy*** · 03-27-2024, 05:49 PM

03-27-2024, 12:11 PMSDCore Wrote: my choker has a little bell when i shake my head it rings alot im like a little cat nya nya nya

Come with me to the catboy realm.

I'm also not going back 5 pages.

Sorry that happened or Happy for you.

***NYR73*** · 03-27-2024, 06:08 PM

Oh no the poor homophobes

MrPresident · 03-27-2024, 06:46 PM

03-27-2024, 03:36 PMbluesfan55 Wrote: i think that question serves a purpose if handled correctly. making it a yes or no thing is, honestly, pretty black and white (which can be good and bad), and while i disagree with people who'd say no to that question, i also think there needs to be an education part in that regard. like if that's a user you really want but they answer no, if you explain the reasoning behind it to them and they get it, that's a good thing; if they don't, just don't draft them in the first place. if they don't want to hear an explanation as to why a pride night for a literal SIMULATION league should exist, they're not for you. but if they disagree and are willing to hear why, just talk to them about it. we need more education in this regard and not public yapping about how both sides are wrong here. the question shouldn't just be used to ostracize people who disagree with you, both publicly and privately, because you just don't get anywhere and it makes both them AND you look bad.

As you rightfully point out, this is a SIMULATION league…it’s not a EDUCATION league. You, me, and everyone else here opened up a browser to get to this site. If you want education, there’s plenty of resources that are free and accessible- it shouldn’t be on the people directly impacted by bigotry and intolerance to educate bigoted and intolerant people and risk creating an unhealthy locker room?

If responding “yes” to “would your fictional hockey player wear a fictional pride jersey” is so far in opposition to the views of those pushing for this question to be removed, why do you want to join LGBTQ+ safe communities, many of which are moderated and/or largely influenced by LGBTQ+ people and culture?

And honestly, there’s a million ways to say no to that question without coming off as anti-LGBTQ+; some may come across as unaware and in need of more information but overall supportive, some may be legitimate ways to approach the question without saying yes.

There’s many causes I support and want to raise awareness to, but only so many games in a season. Instead of just wearing a jersey one game, I’ll ensure my actions and words create a safe environment 365 days a year for my teammates and their loved ones.
I’d rather my team use the budget spent on jerseys to truly amplify the voices of people in the LGBTQ+ community, and donate those funds to charitable groups doing important work.
As a straight man, the rainbow flag isn’t my flag. That flag is a symbol of oppression I have never faced, and I don’t believe it is mine to claim/reclaim. I’ll be supportive of my LGBTQ+ friends and teammates, I’ll donate my cheque from the game to a charity to show my support, and I’d love to let my sister who is part of the community join in the warmup skate to amplify a voice that can speak from the heart on this issue.
As you know, many hockey players are superstitious, myself included. I don’t even like wearing 3rd jerseys. I’d prefer not to wear the jersey, but I’d happily show up to the game wearing a rainbow suit.

There’s lots of ways to show you won’t be a nuisance in the locker room without having to say yes. You can still show support while saying “no”. The issue isn’t “you can’t say no”, the issue is “you can’t get away with being a bigot.”

***micool132*** · 03-27-2024, 07:18 PM

03-27-2024, 06:46 PMMrPresident Wrote: There’s lots of ways to show you won’t be a nuisance in the locker room without having to say yes. You can still show support while saying “no”. The issue isn’t “you can’t say no”, the issue is “you can’t get away with being a bigot.”

God damn that hits like a truck well said.

scudmuffin19 · 03-27-2024, 08:11 PM

03-27-2024, 04:38 PMtrella Wrote: @scudmuffin19 i honestly think your idea of what a forum/league should be is just pretty outdated and its causing some pretty bigoted undertones (some would say overtones) to come out in your posts. you are stuck in the past when you can be bigoted and it be "normal". casual bigotry is not as normalized now, at least on many online spaces, and that is for the better. the purpose of this league is not to provide an open forum where one can say anything they want. this is supposed to be a semi-controlled environment where people can have fun and safely be a part of a community. it would make no sense for teams with lgbtq gms and players to remove this question. and like many others have said, there are still plenty of teams who will allow these types of users on their teams.

it's one thing to complain about a perceived issue on the forum or play devil's advocate. i can't judge you for that because i have done it a lot myself. but to make a post like this about the specific issue you are complaining about is really sus man. the only reason someone would want to complain about something like this is because they are uncomfortable with their own or other people's bigotry being exposed. if you dont have qualms against lgbtq people then wearing the jersey shouldnt be a problem. you could even lie and just say yes if you're that concerned about not limiting your options. but no, you are upset about a question about pride jerseys... for what reason exactly? also, phrasing it as "polarizing questions" and as "controversial" seems very disingenuous to me. you use "polarizing" as if its a bad thing in this circumstance, but the very purpose of the question is exactly to polarize individuals (potentially like yourself) who are too bigoted to even lie on that question. those type of people make this league inherently unsafe for its lgbtq members. also, what the hell is so controversial about pride jerseys? if not for bigotry there would be no controversy.

tldr; there's nothing wrong with those questions and its really sus that you're upset about them

My issue was solely with the use of the question, not the question itself. The "I have friends" card feel so overplayed but honestly, it's the truth. I've made amazing friends here in the SHL that are LGBTQ and I love them for who they are, and I won't waver from that. Now, I perceived the question as an issue from my narrow perspective of this league, and as I can clearly tell from the responses here my perspective is wrong. My view of this league was equivalent to the others I'm in (ISFL, PBE, etc.), where from my experiences there this question doesn't exist, and I don't see the eventual drama from a user answering "no", which happened here. This caused me to question its purpose as a survey question, as I wouldn't expect the league itself to ask questions that I would ask prospects myself as a GM, and in turn seeing some answers being weaponized for which I didn't agree with. But again, my expectations and perspective for what HO should do and what a GM should do differs (re: Trade market values), and I honestly just need to accept that this league isn't like the other leagues and grow from that. How this ended up being was not my intention and I'll admit my own fault and for that I am truly sorry.

***boom*** · 03-27-2024, 08:28 PM

03-27-2024, 08:11 PMscudmuffin19 Wrote: My issue was solely with the use of the question, not the question itself. The "I have friends" card feel so overplayed but honestly, it's the truth. I've made amazing friends here in the SHL that are LGBTQ and I love them for who they are, and I won't waver from that. Now, I perceived the question as an issue from my narrow perspective of this league, and as I can clearly tell from the responses here my perspective is wrong. My view of this league was equivalent to the others I'm in (ISFL, PBE, etc.), where from my experiences there this question doesn't exist, and I don't see the eventual drama from a user answering "no", which happened here. This caused me to question its purpose as a survey question, as I wouldn't expect the league itself to ask questions that I would ask prospects myself as a GM, and in turn seeing some answers being weaponized for which I didn't agree with. But again, my expectations and perspective for what HO should do and what a GM should do differs (re: Trade market values), and I honestly just need to accept that this league isn't like the other leagues and grow from that. How this ended up being was not my intention and I'll admit my own fault and for that I am truly sorry.

As others have said, not fucking up that response to the question - there are many benign ways to phrase it such as wanting to prioritize queer voices or donate the money more directly and tangibly - is totally possible and not that difficult, but if they still trip over it or call it bullshit without elaboration that’s going to obviously bring up the exact same points that queer and trans fans have had to see hurled at them for over a year.

Teams have to prioritize the users they’ve already got on their team, and I’d never ask them to do otherwise, but at this point if these users are still spouting debunked bigoted talking points that’s their own problem.

With regards to other leagues, while they don’t have this question, it’s not like bigotry is a problem exclusive to here because that question exists. Are you annoyed that the bigotry exists, or are you annoyed that people know about it? Queer and trans users deserve to be able to determine who’s safe to be out around here.

The question is useful as a quick vibe check, which can still go a long way.

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