09-14-2018, 09:37 PMWally Wrote:

09-14-2018, 09:32 PMThatDamnMcJesus Wrote:

09-14-2018, 09:08 PMWally Wrote:

09-14-2018, 08:53 PMSlappydoodle Wrote:

09-14-2018, 03:34 PMWally Wrote: To those that feel the need to bait those in saying listed banned terms or words that would deserve a punishment, realize that we will request the full conversation. If there is a determination that the user was baited, drawn into, or otherwise antagonized into violating a personal conduct rule, then you will be punished in the exact same manner

         Posting of additional vocabulary primarily used to slander various religions, ethnic groups, those with disabilities and sexual designations will leave you vulnerable to the same punishments as listed below on a retroactive basis from 9/14/18, going forward (meaning any word used that is deemed in violation will be added to the list and penalized immediately).

4. From this point forward, Discord, as an extension of the SHL itself being represented, will now be under the same scrutiny as the website, simulationhockey.com. While, there will be no need for LRs to have HO involved on a day-to-day basis, as cases are presented they will be reviewed and determined as punishable (or not) at the discretion of the HO.

I would like to preface my comments by saying for the record, I am not someone that courts trouble on this site or any other. I do not tend to use inappropriate language on the boards and rarely, if ever, get into fights or even disagreements around here. I am virtually certain none of this will ever effect me directly. This is about principle and fairness.

While I don’t have an issue with much of this, the above three aspects are troubling.

People are going to have disagreements on the site. They will say mean and hurtful things to one another, on occasion. Who’s to say what constitutes baiting or drawing in. People are responsible for their own words and actions. To blame one party for another’s use of a banned word is nonsensical. Allow people to be responsible for their own actions and not hide behind claims of provocation and inducements.

This second bit is truly outrageous and dictatorial. You are granting yourself the power to retroactively add words to the banned list and punish people for using them before a ruling is ever issued on their acceptability!? This should not be surprising from the same HO that punished c for doing something you felt should be illegal even though it clearly was not. The ex-post facto precedent was set then and apparently is thriving under this regime. It is frankly disturbing and ridiculous that anyone feels they can just change rules after the fact and punish indiscriminately whatever behavior they feel like.

The Discord thing is also egregious. How far does this power extend. If I e-mail someone privately, does the league have the power to punish me for what I wrote? If I meet someone in real life and call them hateful names, can I be banned for this? If I PM someone on Discord in a private conversation, you feel you have the right to punish me? What if it is on discord but completely unrelated to the SHL, like a wrestling or gaming area, or whatever else? How far does your reach extend?

I understand the HO is trying to sanitize the league and create a safe space here. I am not trying to cast doubt as to your motivations. However, I find it deeply disturbing how easily this HO slips into abuses of power and despotic tendencies. The answer always seems to be making up new rules to justify the results you want and then applying them to past behavior. It is keeping in step with the recent decision to take over the GM hiring process. Freedom in the SHL has been dying a slow and painful death for years now. You can not justify anything at all by merely claiming it is in the service of a kinder, gentler SHL.

I think my thought process can be summed up in what I recently sent @“wumaduce” :
We don’t have an age restriction and with that being the case we merely educate those that may never be on a path of bigotry and hatefulness that it is okay.

In saying that Discord is a public domain and is representative of the league as a whole hence it being an extension of the SHL.  We use team names, logos, player names... all of it league related.

As for the retroactive... go to the SHL discord. There is already a handful of people trying to think of terminology that still tries to find a loophole of what you can and cannot say. If you can’t stop yourself from being an asshat then you will face the scrutiny of facing a penalty retro actively. Why does one need to be a bigot to offend someone? We both know damn well we’re arent going to punish someone for calling them an asshole... or a fuck nugget. In 2018, we shouldn’t need to have this... it is common sense. I know many that do this stupid shit know exactly what they are doing. They will always push the envelope. Why? Who knows.

I think they are just pointing the hole through the rule and are unhappy with how badly worded the rule is.

But why? In fear of being suspended for being a bigot? Just don’t be one and there will be nothing to worry about.

The problem is that these things aren't black and white and they never will be. There are multiple layers here that could cause problems imho. First of all, not every word has the same impact, they are all bad but some worse so than others. For me, ***** and ***** are worse than retard or gay, which apparently you guys seem to agree with as well because you chose to bleep the first two in the opening post but not the other two. Other people might have different opinions on the severity however and as you said yourself, new words might be added to the list at any time, which makes a one-size-fits-all approach quite tricky. The second layer is context - i'm sure we'll agree that if someone yells the n-word at someone in a hateful way then he'll deserve very severe punishment. But what about someone who talks to one of his friends saying stuff like "what's up my *****". Is that okay or is it not? And if it isn't, does that person deserve the same kind of punishment as the guy who used that word in a much more hateful context? And then there are countless situations that are somewhere in between those two extremes, someone talking about a (white) member of another team, saying "that ***** stole my trophy" which is probably not okay, but also not nearly as hateful as some other potential situations. This also ties into the third and last layer, which is in-group and out-group. Are you gonna punish black members for casually using the word ***** or LGBTQ members for jokingly using gay terms when talking to each other? Is it fine when people from these groups use those words when in their in-group? What exactly changes depending on who these words are said towards/about, a black member or a white member, a straight one or a gay one, or to no one in particular? And how are we even supposed to know a members race or sexual orientation? Do we want to know? Is it really helpful if we choose to self-segregate along these lines?

Again, none of this makes the use of these words good or right, but there are so many ways in which these situations can be messy and complicated. My fear is that these new rules will either be applied too harshly, or they aren't actually applied consistently and things will still be judged on a case-to-case basis, which would be the more sensible approach but also basically is how things already are, rendering this whole announcement pointless. Although I do appreciate the spirit of this statement as a whole and that you made clear where the league stands on this and that we don't tolerate hate-speech and slurs and want to create an inclusive enviroment. It's good that you guys verbalized this very clearly, I just fear that your way to reach that goal might not prove to be successful.