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*CementHands* · 08-21-2021, 12:44 PM

08-21-2021, 12:24 PMspooked Wrote:
08-21-2021, 12:19 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: no we dont. This isn't how law works lol.

> Your honor, we have no evidence of wrongdoing, but you'll just have to trust us about this one

Things we can't prove aren't evidence. They are hearsay.

You have now made tampering legal, what do we do now? That is what you are suggesting we do as people only have those kinds of talks outside of the official channels for obvious reasons, which we literally have no way to verify. Like we can take people at their word, and talk to others and take them as witness, but that's about the best we can do most of the time if we are not going to just fire every gm for being late on their budget or something.

I do think I get where you are trying to come from, but not every gm is late with their budget. Not every gm is late with their tasks. In fact there are quite a few who always complete everything on time, every time. What is the point of a deadline of it can be simply missed? You make it sound like all gms are playing with an equal field, but 19 of the 20 teams had no issues with this deadline, and there was even a fail safe mechanism in tendering that was not used.

As others have said no rule was actually broken here, the deadline was missed and these players should be up for bidding. Hamilton could still participate in the bidding and they should not have received a punishment at all, as no rule was broken.

spooked · 08-21-2021, 01:09 PM

08-21-2021, 12:39 PMPremierBromanov Wrote:
08-21-2021, 12:24 PMspooked Wrote: You have now made tampering legal, what do we do now? That is what you are suggesting we do as people only have those kinds of talks outside of the official channels for obvious reasons, which we literally have no way to verify. Like we can take people at their word, and talk to others and take them as witness, but that's about the best we can do most of the time if we are not going to just fire every gm for being late on their budget or something.

we're not talking about something that is necessarily subject to interpretation (which is why HO exists) -- things like harassment, tampering, and otherwise communicative behavior -- we're talking about pen and paper contracts. Either you have one or you don't. Handshake agreements aren't a thing here, as normally to prove one (in a business law setting) you'd have to prove that both parties had moved forward as if one existed and had upheld the contract (until one party didn't, causing conflict and the court of law is introduced). But we can't prove parties were moving forward because by definition the moment the deadline passed, the players in question are unable to move forward because they are subject to bidding. No contract was tendered officially, no contract was posted officially, nor rejected or accepted. It ceased to be and intent is irrelevant.

I will probably try to end this here since it is a cyclical issue. I am serious when I say I agree with your ideal for how this should work, and we want to work towards that. Ideally for me as well everything is done on the site, and if it isn't we could void it or not count it until it is completed. That is the most straightforward application we can get to in terms of a rules structure and application of the rules.

The issue then becomes that this site is a hobby and not everyone is active 24/7 to accept contracts in time for a deadline, and in some cases they simply don't really care enough to show up. There is a fundamental challenge across the league that we cannot pause the season to wait for someone to have the time to agree in a thread, but the thread gets posted after the GM has already agreed in private, and in cases where people cannot accept in time in the forum, or the GMs are having trouble reaching them, we will defer to a private agreement that is provided as proof to allow the signing to occur under the assumption that when the player returns they can accept the deal. Now, if there are issues when the player comes back that is another topic, which would end up in a punishment.

Without the ability to allow these signings a lot of teams would at some points have struggles locking down parts of their rosters in time for a deadline, and may have issues fielding rosters in time for the season if the problem gets dire enough and they need to replace multiple people who failed to type "accept". In some cases these players may even end up having to sit out a season if no one has space to pick up their contract when they return. If we are going by the letter of the rules, a lot of teams would end up with limbo players (not inactive enough to be autosignable, but not active enough to reliably sign legally within the window they are doing contracts in) and it could impact the league if we made every GM replace every player that didn't show up for a couple days. A player going on vacation during the offseason could see them be left out for a couple months just cause they were busy on a specific day when the threads go up, god forbid its someone new to the site, I doubt we would ever see them again.

You would get literally no complaints from me if we could move to a full-on rulebook wins world, makes my life WAY easier, but that is realistically not something that makes sense in a world where this is a hobby site and fake money that people forget to post in sometimes and aren't all equally motivated to take part in. We need to make things painless for players if we can, and part of that is making contracts easy for them and not confusing them with random team changes because they tuned out for a bit or because their gm was a bit late on something. I have no issues getting your perspective cause I would like things that way if we could, but it would just cause so many headaches that it is literally not worth going down that avenue with some parts of the rulebook.

EDIT: If you want to talk more about this you can reach out on discord probably, I just need to get some other stuff done today so hopefully I explained enough, but I am always available if you want to talk about anything!

Netlandic · 08-21-2021, 01:12 PM

that second rounder in 6 years, gonna be a future solid starter for a team 10 years from now

*CementHands* · 08-21-2021, 01:22 PM

08-21-2021, 01:09 PMspooked Wrote:
08-21-2021, 12:39 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: we're not talking about something that is necessarily subject to interpretation (which is why HO exists) -- things like harassment, tampering, and otherwise communicative behavior -- we're talking about pen and paper contracts. Either you have one or you don't. Handshake agreements aren't a thing here, as normally to prove one (in a business law setting) you'd have to prove that both parties had moved forward as if one existed and had upheld the contract (until one party didn't, causing conflict and the court of law is introduced). But we can't prove parties were moving forward because by definition the moment the deadline passed, the players in question are unable to move forward because they are subject to bidding. No contract was tendered officially, no contract was posted officially, nor rejected or accepted. It ceased to be and intent is irrelevant.

I will probably try to end this here since it is a cyclical issue. I am serious when I say I agree with your ideal for how this should work, and we want to work towards that. Ideally for me as well everything is done on the site, and if it isn't we could void it or not count it until it is completed. That is the most straightforward application we can get to in terms of a rules structure and application of the rules.

The issue then becomes that this site is a hobby and not everyone is active 24/7 to accept contracts in time for a deadline, and in some cases they simply don't really care enough to show up. There is a fundamental challenge across the league that we cannot pause the season to wait for someone to have the time to agree in a thread, but the thread gets posted after the GM has already agreed in private, and in cases where people cannot accept in time in the forum, or the GMs are having trouble reaching them, we will defer to a private agreement that is provided as proof to allow the signing to occur under the assumption that when the player returns they can accept the deal. Now, if there are issues when the player comes back that is another topic, which would end up in a punishment.

Without the ability to allow these signings a lot of teams would at some points have struggles locking down parts of their rosters in time for a deadline, and may have issues fielding rosters in time for the season if the problem gets dire enough and they need to replace multiple people who failed to type "accept". In some cases these players may even end up having to sit out a season if no one has space to pick up their contract when they return. If we are going by the letter of the rules, a lot of teams would end up with limbo players (not inactive enough to be autosignable, but not active enough to reliably sign legally within the window they are doing contracts in) and it could impact the league if we made every GM replace every player that didn't show up for a couple days. A player going on vacation during the offseason could see them be left out for a couple months just cause they were busy on a specific day when the threads go up, god forbid its someone new to the site, I doubt we would ever see them again.

You would get literally no complaints from me if we could move to a full-on rulebook wins world, makes my life WAY easier, but that is realistically not something that makes sense in a world where this is a hobby site and fake money that people forget to post in sometimes and aren't all equally motivated to take part in. We need to make things painless for players if we can, and part of that is making contracts easy for them and not confusing them with random team changes because they tuned out for a bit or because their gm was a bit late on something. I have no issues getting your perspective cause I would like things that way if we could, but it would just cause so many headaches that it is literally not worth going down that avenue with some parts of the rulebook.

EDIT: If you want to talk more about this you can reach out on discord probably, I just need to get some other stuff done today so hopefully I explained enough, but I am always available if you want to talk about anything!

If Hamilton posted these before the deadline and they weren’t publicly replied to I don’t think we’d be having a discussion at all. As for having trouble reaching people, that’s what ifa contracts are for and bidding. Baltimore had this a few seasons ago with Maximus, he wouldn’t respond anymore so they had to go to ifa bidding for him. It’s not great, but there are systems in place that everyone else follows or suffer the consequences, except for this one off where there are apparently different set of rules.

spooked · 08-21-2021, 01:31 PM

08-21-2021, 12:44 PMCementHands Wrote:
08-21-2021, 12:24 PMspooked Wrote: You have now made tampering legal, what do we do now? That is what you are suggesting we do as people only have those kinds of talks outside of the official channels for obvious reasons, which we literally have no way to verify. Like we can take people at their word, and talk to others and take them as witness, but that's about the best we can do most of the time if we are not going to just fire every gm for being late on their budget or something.

I do think I get where you are trying to come from, but not every gm is late with their budget. Not every gm is late with their tasks. In fact there are quite a few who always complete everything on time, every time. What is the point of a deadline of it can be simply missed? You make it sound like all gms are playing with an equal field, but 19 of the 20 teams had no issues with this deadline, and there was even a fail safe mechanism in tendering that was not used.

As others have said no rule was actually broken here, the deadline was missed and these players should be up for bidding. Hamilton could still participate in the bidding and they should not have received a punishment at all, as no rule was broken.

I agree, a lot of GMs are great at getting things done, but a lot of them have 1-2 issues a season that we need to be flexible on. Implying this result wouldn't have happened for another team or another player is an assumption. 20/20 teams were playing within the rules before this punishment and one ended up in a bad spot by missing the deadline, but 20/20 teams would have had the owners accept agreed upon contracts from discord messages because the justification had nothing to do with the player or the team, but was derived from the league's historical attitude on privately agreed upon contracts being a valid agreement that should be respected because the players agreed to the terms. Once that is ruled, everything is what it is.

At the end of the day HO makes the rules and changes them, so us essentially amending them in action to not have something play out the wrong way is something we can do. I get that users would have a hard time accepting that, especially if its a team like HAM in the firing line, but it is the case that instead of amending the rule after this instance, Owners decided to amend it during the instance since we do have the ability to do that, and it wouldn't be the first time we adjust rules on the fly based on situations coming up that we weren't considering.

I said this in the previous post, but reach out on discord if you want any more from me, I am available all the time so feel free!

Samsung virtual assistant · 08-21-2021, 01:31 PM

08-21-2021, 05:38 AMWashed-up trash Wrote: Are trades submitted an hour after the trade deadline legal too if they were agreed upon in DMs?

**.bojo** · 08-21-2021, 01:33 PM

Remember that time ace got fired for a small whoopsie doopsie

***sve7en*** · 08-21-2021, 01:39 PM

08-21-2021, 01:33 PM.bojo Wrote: Remember that time ace got fired for a small whoopsie doopsie

He's not the only one either

Keygan · 08-21-2021, 02:14 PM

I think it was been well versed here already, but my ultimate frustration with the decision made is primarily the fact that there are some punishments in recent memory that felt too harsh but head office and the appeals committee stated "Rule book is what it is, we can't retroactively change it." but in this scenario we have more or less been told, "Yes the rulebook says this, but I arbitrarily have decided it did not actually refer to this scenario, therefore we are not following the rulebook."

ml002 · 08-21-2021, 02:18 PM

Y'all are still going?

Credit to Copenhagen, Wasty, FlappyGiraffe, InciteHysteria, and caltroit_red_flames
[Image: MM4nqx6.png]

*leviadan* · 08-21-2021, 02:23 PM

08-21-2021, 02:18 PMml002 Wrote: Y'all are still going?

30 pages is within reach. If you're going to comment at this point at least stoke the flames a little bit. Call me a dunce or something!

[Image: pin1_1.gif?ex=66ef0174&is=66edaff4&hm=69...e3ef77306&]

Symmetrik · 08-21-2021, 02:26 PM

08-21-2021, 12:24 PMspooked Wrote:
08-21-2021, 12:19 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: no we dont. This isn't how law works lol.

> Your honor, we have no evidence of wrongdoing, but you'll just have to trust us about this one

Things we can't prove aren't evidence. They are hearsay.

You have now made tampering legal, what do we do now? That is what you are suggesting we do as people only have those kinds of talks outside of the official channels for obvious reasons, which we literally have no way to verify. Like we can take people at their word, and talk to others and take them as witness, but that's about the best we can do most of the time if we are not going to just fire every gm for being late on their budget or something.

I want to point out a recent(ish, from february this year) where the Stampede didn't sign Selich ON THE FORUM. It was understood there was an agreement. But they still had to do it on site, and they didn't. So they were playing an illegal player.

HO already set the precedent that even if there was an agreement, if it's not on the forum, it's not official. So officially, Hamilton did not sign these players before the deadline. So they should have been bid on.

Memento Mori · 08-21-2021, 02:26 PM

08-21-2021, 02:23 PMleviadan Wrote:
08-21-2021, 02:18 PMml002 Wrote: Y'all are still going?

30 pages is within reach. If you're going to comment at this point at least stoke the flames a little bit. Call me a dunce or something!

I've never spoken to you, but I've heard all sorts of horrible things about you!

*leviadan* · 08-21-2021, 02:30 PM

08-21-2021, 02:26 PMMemento Mori Wrote:
08-21-2021, 02:23 PMleviadan Wrote: 30 pages is within reach. If you're going to comment at this point at least stoke the flames a little bit. Call me a dunce or something!
I've never spoken to you, but I've heard all sorts of horrible things about you!

Jay Sink? More like Jay Stink.

( nothin' personal kid, but sometimes it's just too easy Cool

)

JumpierPegasus · 08-21-2021, 02:43 PM

08-21-2021, 02:18 PMml002 Wrote: Y'all are still going?

Haven't really gotten any good answers from people involved and it doesn't really feel like there ever will be. So people will remain upset

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