Originally posted by Wheelz@May 22 2012, 05:49 PM


Awww Jesus Christ almighty God.  :facepalm:

I don't know what you're getting at with the strong heart to start with.

I never said it had to be an act of god. I just meant that these animals couldn't have evolved.

I only said "have you observed evolution" in a counter argument for another saying "have you seen God or have proof he exists"

Why couldn't they have evolved? Because there isn't concrete proof? Because you haven't witnessed it? Give me a reason.

Do you believe, that black or darker skin people were put on the Earth like this, or that they evolved due to living in a hotter climate? Even though the bible tells you Adam and Eve were the first two humans, and as far as we are told, are white. How does that work?

Or if black people were the first two on the Earth, how are people white?

Originally posted by Shutout@May 22 2012, 06:53 PM


Gibby 4 God 2012

I'll make posters...Gibby 2012 imo B)

Originally posted by NathanAD@May 22 2012, 05:55 PM


Why couldn't they have evolved? Because there isn't concrete proof? Because you haven't witnessed it? Give me a reason.

Do you believe, that black or darker skin people were put on the Earth like this, or that they evolved due to living in a hotter climate? Even though the bible tells you Adam and Eve were the first two humans, and as far as we are told, are white. How does that work?

Or if black people were the first two on the Earth, how are people white?

I hope you're just trolling Nate because wow, If you're serious I'm worried about you.

Originally posted by Wheelz@May 22 2012, 05:58 PM


I hope you're just trolling Nate because wow, If you're serious I'm worried about you.

For what reason are you worried? Because you can't answer it?

I'm not trolling, I'm playing Devil's advocate for what it's worth. I believe there is a God, but I also believe in evolution and that many of the things that the bible said were exaggerated greatly

Nate is not the one claiming that an giant spoonful of cinnamon created the universe

Gibby 2012
And guys don't argue aha share and compare opinions and facts geez

Originally posted by Wheelz@May 22 2012, 06:58 PM


I hope you're just trolling Nate because wow, If you're serious I'm worried about you.

Nah nates a big dumb dumb...you should explain it to him

Originally posted by NathanAD@May 22 2012, 05:59 PM


For what reason are you worried? Because you can't answer it?

I'm not trolling, I'm playing Devil's advocate for what it's worth. I believe there is a God, but I also believe in evolution and that many of the things that the bible said were exaggerated greatly

Forget the damn giraffe then. Watch this video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lKM9yoQ3Wug

Originally posted by noptwor@May 22 2012, 07:00 PM
Nate is not the one claiming that an giant spoonful of cinnamon created the universe

And just who gonna be man enough to swallow it?

<-- this guy...Gibby 2012

Originally posted by Wheelz@May 22 2012, 06:01 PM


Forget the damn giraffe then. Watch this video. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lKM9yoQ3Wug

I've never heard about it, so I don't know much, but here is what I found:

Gish is wrong; a step-by-step evolution of the bombardier system is really not that hard to envision. The scenario below shows a possible step-by-step evolution of the bombardier beetle mechanism from a primitive arthropod.

Quinones are produced by epidermal cells for tanning the cuticle. This exists commonly in arthropods. [Dettner, 1987]

Some of the quinones don't get used up, but sit on the epidermis, making the arthropod distasteful. (Quinones are used as defensive secretions in a variety of modern arthropods, from beetles to millipedes. [Eisner, 1970])

Small invaginations develop in the epidermis between sclerites (plates of cuticle). By wiggling, the insect can squeeze more quinones onto its surface when they're needed.

The invaginations deepen. Muscles are moved around slightly, allowing them to help expel the quinones from some of them. (Many ants have glands similar to this near the end of their abdomen. [Holldobler & Wilson, 1990, pp. 233-237])

A couple invaginations (now reservoirs) become so deep that the others are inconsequential by comparison. Those gradually revert to the original epidermis.

In various insects, different defensive chemicals besides quinones appear. (See Eisner, 1970, for a review.) This helps those insects defend against predators which have evolved resistance to quinones. One of the new defensive chemicals is hydroquinone.

Cells that secrete the hydroquinones develop in multiple layers over part of the reservoir, allowing more hydroquinones to be produced. Channels between cells allow hydroquinones from all layers to reach the reservior.

The channels become a duct, specialized for transporting the chemicals. The secretory cells withdraw from the reservoir surface, ultimately becoming a separate organ.
This stage -- secretory glands connected by ducts to reservoirs -- exists in many beetles. The particular configuration of glands and reservoirs that bombardier beetles have is common to the other beetles in their suborder. [Forsyth, 1970]

Muscles adapt which close off the reservior, thus preventing the chemicals from leaking out when they're not needed.

Hydrogen peroxide, which is a common by-product of cellular metabolism, becomes mixed with the hydroquinones. The two react slowly, so a mixture of quinones and hydroquinones get used for defense.

Cells secreting a small amount of catalases and peroxidases appear along the output passage of the reservoir, outside the valve which closes it off from the outside. These ensure that more quinones appear in the defensive secretions. Catalases exist in almost all cells, and peroxidases are also common in plants, animals, and bacteria, so those chemicals needn't be developed from scratch but merely concentrated in one location.

More catalases and peroxidases are produced, so the discharge is warmer and is expelled faster by the oxygen generated by the reaction. The beetle Metrius contractus provides an example of a bombardier beetle which produces a foamy discharge, not jets, from its reaction chambers. The bubbling of the foam produces a fine mist. [Eisner et al., 2000]

The walls of that part of the output passage become firmer, allowing them to better withstand the heat and pressure generated by the reaction.

Still more catalases and peroxidases are produced, and the walls toughen and shape into a reaction chamber. Gradually they become the mechanism of today's bombardier beetles.

The tip of the beetle's abdomen becomes somewhat elongated and more flexible, allowing the beetle to aim its discharge in various directions.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html

There you go.

Here's some more:

Do bombardier beetles look designed? Yes; they look like they were designed by evolution. Their features, behaviors, and distribution nicely fit the kinds of patterns that evolution creates. Nobody has yet found anything about any bombardier beetle which is incompatible with evolution.

This does not mean, of course, that we know everything about the evolution of bombardier beetles; far from it. But the gaps in our knowledge should not be interpreted as meaningful in themselves. Some people are apparently uncomfortable with the idea of uncertainty, so uncomfortable that they try to turn the unknown into the unknowable. There has never been any evidence that bombardier beetles could not have evolved, but just because they couldn't explain exactly how the beetles evolved, lots of people jumped to the conclusion that an explanation was impossible. In fact, their conclusion says a lot more about themselves than about the beetles. To make such a conclusion based only on a lack of knowledge is a kind of arrogance.

Does evolution disqualify an intelligent designer? A lot of people reject the idea of evolution because they think it takes away any role for God to play in the creation of life. Such is the case, however, only for people who require God's role to fit certain narrow preconceptions of what "intelligent design" must mean. Millions of people around the world have no trouble believing in God and accepting evolution at the same time. Evolution only contradicts a man-made God that operates under man-made constraints.

Finally, remember that the general arguments used here apply to a lot more than bombardier beetles. Creationists have argued for an appearance of design in everything from bacteria flagella to butterfly metamorphosis. Those arguments all share the same fallacies; they are all based on a combination of ignorace combined with a concept of design that is indistinguishable from evolution. If a kind of design incompatible with evolution were found in biology, nobody would be more excited than the professional biologists. As yet we haven't found such a design.

fernando ur smart u say smtng

if by gish you mean duane gish then dont bother. he gets the basic facts about evolution wrong on a continual basis.

Originally posted by noptwor@May 22 2012, 06:10 PM
if by gish you mean duane gish then dont bother. he gets the basic facts about evolution wrong on a continual basis.

I'm just quoting the website.

Originally posted by NathanAD@May 22 2012, 06:08 PM


I've never heard about it, so I don't know much, but here is what I found:

Gish is wrong; a step-by-step evolution of the bombardier system is really not that hard to envision. The scenario below shows a possible step-by-step evolution of the bombardier beetle mechanism from a primitive arthropod.

Quinones are produced by epidermal cells for tanning the cuticle. This exists commonly in arthropods. [Dettner, 1987]

Some of the quinones don't get used up, but sit on the epidermis, making the arthropod distasteful. (Quinones are used as defensive secretions in a variety of modern arthropods, from beetles to millipedes. [Eisner, 1970])

Small invaginations develop in the epidermis between sclerites (plates of cuticle). By wiggling, the insect can squeeze more quinones onto its surface when they're needed.

The invaginations deepen. Muscles are moved around slightly, allowing them to help expel the quinones from some of them. (Many ants have glands similar to this near the end of their abdomen. [Holldobler & Wilson, 1990, pp. 233-237])

A couple invaginations (now reservoirs) become so deep that the others are inconsequential by comparison. Those gradually revert to the original epidermis.

In various insects, different defensive chemicals besides quinones appear. (See Eisner, 1970, for a review.) This helps those insects defend against predators which have evolved resistance to quinones. One of the new defensive chemicals is hydroquinone.

Cells that secrete the hydroquinones develop in multiple layers over part of the reservoir, allowing more hydroquinones to be produced. Channels between cells allow hydroquinones from all layers to reach the reservior.

The channels become a duct, specialized for transporting the chemicals. The secretory cells withdraw from the reservoir surface, ultimately becoming a separate organ.
This stage -- secretory glands connected by ducts to reservoirs -- exists in many beetles. The particular configuration of glands and reservoirs that bombardier beetles have is common to the other beetles in their suborder. [Forsyth, 1970]

Muscles adapt which close off the reservior, thus preventing the chemicals from leaking out when they're not needed.

Hydrogen peroxide, which is a common by-product of cellular metabolism, becomes mixed with the hydroquinones. The two react slowly, so a mixture of quinones and hydroquinones get used for defense.

Cells secreting a small amount of catalases and peroxidases appear along the output passage of the reservoir, outside the valve which closes it off from the outside. These ensure that more quinones appear in the defensive secretions. Catalases exist in almost all cells, and peroxidases are also common in plants, animals, and bacteria, so those chemicals needn't be developed from scratch but merely concentrated in one location.

More catalases and peroxidases are produced, so the discharge is warmer and is expelled faster by the oxygen generated by the reaction. The beetle Metrius contractus provides an example of a bombardier beetle which produces a foamy discharge, not jets, from its reaction chambers. The bubbling of the foam produces a fine mist. [Eisner et al., 2000]

The walls of that part of the output passage become firmer, allowing them to better withstand the heat and pressure generated by the reaction.

Still more catalases and peroxidases are produced, and the walls toughen and shape into a reaction chamber. Gradually they become the mechanism of today's bombardier beetles.

The tip of the beetle's abdomen becomes somewhat elongated and more flexible, allowing the beetle to aim its discharge in various directions.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html

There you go.

Here's some more:

Do bombardier beetles look designed? Yes; they look like they were designed by evolution. Their features, behaviors, and distribution nicely fit the kinds of patterns that evolution creates. Nobody has yet found anything about any bombardier beetle which is incompatible with evolution.

This does not mean, of course, that we know everything about the evolution of bombardier beetles; far from it. But the gaps in our knowledge should not be interpreted as meaningful in themselves. Some people are apparently uncomfortable with the idea of uncertainty, so uncomfortable that they try to turn the unknown into the unknowable. There has never been any evidence that bombardier beetles could not have evolved, but just because they couldn't explain exactly how the beetles evolved, lots of people jumped to the conclusion that an explanation was impossible. In fact, their conclusion says a lot more about themselves than about the beetles. To make such a conclusion based only on a lack of knowledge is a kind of arrogance.

Does evolution disqualify an intelligent designer? A lot of people reject the idea of evolution because they think it takes away any role for God to play in the creation of life. Such is the case, however, only for people who require God's role to fit certain narrow preconceptions of what "intelligent design" must mean. Millions of people around the world have no trouble believing in God and accepting evolution at the same time. Evolution only contradicts a man-made God that operates under man-made constraints.

Finally, remember that the general arguments used here apply to a lot more than bombardier beetles. Creationists have argued for an appearance of design in everything from bacteria flagella to butterfly metamorphosis. Those arguments all share the same fallacies; they are all based on a combination of ignorace combined with a concept of design that is indistinguishable from evolution. If a kind of design incompatible with evolution were found in biology, nobody would be more excited than the professional biologists. As yet we haven't found such a design.

Tldr

Anyways, I dont even know why I'm arguing. I'm not the most religious person. I'm not the most educated on the subject. I just can't stand when people try to disprove god and call it fantasies and fairy tales and make you and your beliefs sound stupid. Tbh, if someone acted like that to my face and snarky and elitist like that, I would probably punch them in their face. I don't give a fuck. Adjust your attitudes.

The lack of understanding of what a scientific theory is in this thread is startling. Even wikipedia is able to help you - "in modern science the term "theory", or "scientific theory" is generally understood to refer to a proposed explanation of empirical phenomena, made in a way consistent with scientific method."