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HOF Are you Kidding me?
#31

he'll get there

artermis,Feb 2 2017, 04:11 PM Wrote:9gag pretty lit tho
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#32

We doing the Hall of Fame or Hall of Very Good? I could look at the hall and point out a guy or two and go 'Why is he in there?'

22 seasons as a very good player I would expect him to be pretty high up there in overall points produced/playoff leader boards and whatnot. 22 seasons.
Here's a rough idea of the awards these guys have in major awards voted on by the committee. I don't take this as the gospel or anything, there can be mistakes made in these.

Esa: None
Eriksson: League MVP/Playoff MVP
Garbznzo: League MVP/Stevensx5
Joe McK: League MVPx2/Darx2
Kane: League MVPx2/Darx2/Playoff MVP
D. Winter: None
Hallsy's forward: Has some MVPs and Dars, awards committee should change the jordan halls to taylor mcdavid since he's the same person and just changed names
LPF: None
Sarantez: None
Lloren: None
Randleman: League MVPX2/Darx2
Chris McZ: League MVP/Darx2
Adam Kylrad: Dar

There's clearly tiers within the list you even detailed and Pedersen is not in the upper echelon.
Winter and LFP have lead the league in statistical categories before I'm not a fan of Flacko and there's a reason he wasn't getting many awards despite leading the league in a bunch of categories.

Has anyone ever looked at Pedersen and went 'damn that guy is the best player at his position'
Pedersen top 10 scoring finishes:
S33 (T5)

Think that's it.

He'll have his # retired in Calgary, but it shouldn't be a shock that he didn't get in first ballot.

And I don't think he'll get into the Hall of Fame for being great, he'll get in for being very good over a long period of time. There are guys like Pedersen in the hall that have been very good over an extended period of time and I believe he will join them. Don't get me wrong, what Pedersen did isn't easy. Lots of one hit wonders that shouldn't be considered as good as Pedersen because they couldn't maintain any decent consistency.


The real HOF debate is goaltending. What gets them in?

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#33

Personally. Pedersen should get in but as others have stated his case isn't that great or a slam dunk first ballot guy. He will probably get in with his 3rd or 4th ballot depending on the strength of the eligible players but as other said he was very consistent but never had great seasons and therefore never awards and I don't even know how many All star appearances for example. He will be purely a guy that gets in thanks to consistency. One thing is for sure he won't get in next season because of Nuck,Kane and LFP & Clayton. It's also not that you could say well he was a physical player because he wasn't one for a long time.

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#34

12-26-2018, 12:10 PM.bojo Wrote: I mean... Izzy does have a point?  Almost everyone else in that screenshot is HOF, and he has a bunch of championships to back it up. His rookie season he had 30 points, and from s23-s37 had no less than 40 points a season, including four over 50 with one at 59. In his 22 seasons, he had 4 under 30 points within the tail end of the career.

Not to crap on Nereus, who I'm not sure if his entry was the first ballot or not, but I'd think that kind of consistency is better than Nereus's one really good season in s34.

+1

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#35
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2018, 04:35 AM by DeletedAtUserRequest.)

12-27-2018, 02:53 AMBoomcheck Wrote: We doing the Hall of Fame or Hall of Very Good? I could look at the hall and point out a guy or two and go 'Why is he in there?'

22 seasons as a very good player I would expect him to be pretty high up there in overall points produced/playoff leader boards and whatnot. 22 seasons.
Here's a rough idea of the awards these guys have in major awards voted on by the committee. I don't take this as the gospel or anything, there can be mistakes made in these.

Esa: None
Eriksson: League MVP/Playoff MVP
Garbznzo: League MVP/Stevensx5
Joe McK: League MVPx2/Darx2
Kane: League MVPx2/Darx2/Playoff MVP
D. Winter: None
Hallsy's forward: Has some MVPs and Dars, awards committee should change the jordan halls to taylor mcdavid since he's the same person and just changed names
LPF: None
Sarantez: None
Lloren: None
Randleman: League MVPX2/Darx2
Chris McZ: League MVP/Darx2
Adam Kylrad: Dar

There's clearly tiers within the list you even detailed and Pedersen is not in the upper echelon.
Winter and LFP have lead the league in statistical categories before I'm not a fan of Flacko and there's a reason he wasn't getting many awards despite leading the league in a bunch of categories.

Has anyone ever looked at Pedersen and went 'damn that guy is the best player at his position'
Pedersen top 10 scoring finishes:
S33 (T5)

Think that's it.

He'll have his # retired in Calgary, but it shouldn't be a shock that he didn't get in first ballot.

And I don't think he'll get into the Hall of Fame for being great, he'll get in for being very good over a long period of time. There are guys like Pedersen in the hall that have been very good over an extended period of time and I believe he will join them. Don't get me wrong, what Pedersen did isn't easy. Lots of one hit wonders that shouldn't be considered as good as Pedersen because they couldn't maintain any decent consistency.


The real HOF debate is goaltending. What gets them in?


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372 words and not 1 word said on the 5 championship rings on his hand? Amazing.  Undecided

A 1st line stud for 5 championships and your just going to bypass that as something not even worth adding in this post?  5 titles is the most championships in SHL history... are we dismissing all those titles as mid evil magic or good luck? ... it takes a player like Nicholas Pederson to be that great that he can score 869 points which is 8th all time.. yet still give a portion of his numbers towards the bigger cause.... and that should be reflected in the discussions that go on within the hall of fame group.

and if were being honest... what would those numbers had been if you put him in Chris Yorks situation over a portion of his career?  It cant be all about how many tokens a player has in Argars league of distinguished players because the STHS rewards good players on shit teams. again something the committee should be adding into their equations.


Boomcheck.. I'm a big fan of yours! im just adding my counter in this discussion.. have a happy hollidays  Cheers

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#36

Personally im happy about the hof committee doesnt have the ridiculous obsession with cups like people do IRL. Sure 5 is cool and as others say he'll be inducted eventually.

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#37

12-27-2018, 04:23 AMMike Izzy Wrote: A 1st line stud for 5 championships
S42 3rd Line 20%|Extra Forward on the PP, 16 games 4 goals, 1 game winner, least ice time out of any CGY player not a rookie. 1st line stud? no, CGY prolly could have won without him.
S40 2nd Line 35%| 2nd PP 40%, 19 games 4g 6a no game winners, 6 forwards and 2 defenders scored more points.18 minutes per game. 1st line stud? No, but a decent middle 6 forward. CGY prolly could have won without him.
S32 1st liner tied for 3rd in team points. 1st line stud? Yeah
S29 1st liner tied for 1st in team points 1st line stud? Yeah
S27 no data but judging by his regular season performance. 1st line stud? Yeah

So he was very important for 3/5 cups. His last cup he definitely was gifted. the 4th one can be argued about but I'd lean towards saying that Pedersen played a decent enough role for that win.

Again I want Pedersen to be in the Hall but imo it's not a crime to not let him in this season I can see both points just wanted to argue the " A 1st line stud for 5 championships " thing.

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3. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 5 (Maximilian Wachter, Alexis Metzler) at 16:25
5. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 6 (Steven Stamkos Jr., Brynjar Tusk) at 19:48
8. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 7 (Brynjar Tusk, Alexis Metzler) at 13:55
9. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 8 (Anton Fedorov, Mikelis Grundmanis) at 15:12
10. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 9 (Dickie Pecker) at 19:43 (Empty Net)
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#38

12-27-2018, 06:41 AMTomen Wrote:
12-27-2018, 04:23 AMMike Izzy Wrote: A 1st line stud for 5 championships
S42 3rd Line 20%|Extra Forward on the PP, 16 games 4 goals, 1 game winner, least ice time out of any CGY player not a rookie. 1st line stud? no, CGY prolly could have won without him.
S40 2nd Line 35%| 2nd PP 40%, 19 games 4g 6a no game winners, 6 forwards and 2 defenders scored more points.18 minutes per game. 1st line stud? No, but a decent middle 6 forward. CGY prolly could have won without him.
S32 1st liner tied for 3rd in team points. 1st line stud? Yeah
S29 1st liner tied for 1st in team points 1st line stud? Yeah
S27 no data but judging by his regular season performance. 1st line stud? Yeah

So he was very important for 3/5 cups. His last cup he definitely was gifted. the 4th one can be argued about but I'd lean towards saying that Pedersen played a decent enough role for that win.

Again I want Pedersen to be in the Hall but imo it's not a crime to not let him in this season I can see both points just wanted to argue the " A 1st line stud for 5 championships " thing.

He was only "important for 3 cups" would make me jizz so hard.

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#39

12-27-2018, 08:50 AM.bojo Wrote:
12-27-2018, 06:41 AMTomen Wrote: S42 3rd Line 20%|Extra Forward on the PP, 16 games 4 goals, 1 game winner, least ice time out of any CGY player not a rookie. 1st line stud? no, CGY prolly could have won without him.
S40 2nd Line 35%| 2nd PP 40%, 19 games 4g 6a no game winners, 6 forwards and 2 defenders scored more points.18 minutes per game. 1st line stud? No, but a decent middle 6 forward. CGY prolly could have won without him.
S32 1st liner tied for 3rd in team points. 1st line stud? Yeah
S29 1st liner tied for 1st in team points 1st line stud? Yeah
S27 no data but judging by his regular season performance. 1st line stud? Yeah

So he was very important for 3/5 cups. His last cup he definitely was gifted. the 4th one can be argued about but I'd lean towards saying that Pedersen played a decent enough role for that win.

Again I want Pedersen to be in the Hall but imo it's not a crime to not let him in this season I can see both points just wanted to argue the " A 1st line stud for 5 championships " thing.

He was only "important for 3 cups" would make me jizz so hard.

me too

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3. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 5 (Maximilian Wachter, Alexis Metzler) at 16:25
5. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 6 (Steven Stamkos Jr., Brynjar Tusk) at 19:48
8. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 7 (Brynjar Tusk, Alexis Metzler) at 13:55
9. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 8 (Anton Fedorov, Mikelis Grundmanis) at 15:12
10. Buffalo Stampede , Eduard Selich 9 (Dickie Pecker) at 19:43 (Empty Net)
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#40

12-26-2018, 04:04 PMToeDragon84 Wrote:
12-26-2018, 12:10 PM.bojo Wrote: I mean... Izzy does have a point?  Almost everyone else in that screenshot is HOF, and he has a bunch of championships to back it up. His rookie season he had 30 points, and from s23-s37 had no less than 40 points a season, including four over 50 with one at 59. In his 22 seasons, he had 4 under 30 points within the tail end of the career.

Not to crap on Nereus, who I'm not sure if his entry was the first ballot or not, but I'd think that kind of consistency is better than Nereus's one really good season in s34.

Fleming led the Jets for 6 seasons in a row, pretty consistent in his own right. Summing their career as one really good season in S34 is weak.

Also, since this was kinda brushed over (catching up from AWOL these past few days), it was not his first ballot. It was his third, which reads like the consensus on when Pedersen will get in from what I'm gathering in this thread?

Flemmy definitely wasn't around as long as Pedey, but even in that shorter span he had more PPG seasons and just as many 100+ hit seasons (with better numbers in those seasons). It's easy to say his MVP season was an aberration because it was his only award-winning season, but it ... really wasn't?

A more interesting argument re: these two players, honestly, would be ice time. How much did Flemmy's numbers benefit from playing sometimes 1400 minutes in a season when Nicky, even at his peak, topped out at 1272 in his last season as a Panther? A quick and dirty and hardly conclusive "pro-rating" of Pedey's stats in his peak seasons to play double-shift minutes doesn't quite get him to Flemmy's peak during that time, but it does get him into the 64-68 point range, and what's to say more time against third-liners wouldn't have accounted for a couple of extra points here and there?

I say all of this to say, just from my experience voting on awards (none whatsoever with HOF), it's rarely as simple as anyone will want you to think at first glance. I could go on and on dissecting various pros and cons for both of these guys - and that's not mentioning the dozens of other names up for the HOF each season, and the ones who will join that list next season and so on.

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#41

Also, like I have said numerous times, getting more ice time doesn't mean you add the same P/20 average to the extra time. It isn't a linear deal.

Guys with fewer minutes would assuredly have more points, but there is no guarantee they would score at the same pace (or higher or lower), which makes it incredibly hard to really compare.

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#42

12-27-2018, 08:56 AMztevans Wrote:
12-26-2018, 04:04 PMToeDragon84 Wrote: Fleming led the Jets for 6 seasons in a row, pretty consistent in his own right. Summing their career as one really good season in S34 is weak.

Also, since this was kinda brushed over (catching up from AWOL these past few days), it was not his first ballot. It was his third, which reads like the consensus on when Pedersen will get in from what I'm gathering in this thread?

Flemmy definitely wasn't around as long as Pedey, but even in that shorter span he had more PPG seasons and just as many 100+ hit seasons (with better numbers in those seasons). It's easy to say his MVP season was an aberration because it was his only award-winning season, but it ... really wasn't?

A more interesting argument re: these two players, honestly, would be ice time. How much did Flemmy's numbers benefit from playing sometimes 1400 minutes in a season when Nicky, even at his peak, topped out at 1272 in his last season as a Panther? A quick and dirty and hardly conclusive "pro-rating" of Pedey's stats in his peak seasons to play double-shift minutes doesn't quite get him to Flemmy's peak during that time, but it does get him into the 64-68 point range, and what's to say more time against third-liners wouldn't have accounted for a couple of extra points here and there?

I say all of this to say, just from my experience voting on awards (none whatsoever with HOF), it's rarely as simple as anyone will want you to think at first glance. I could go on and on dissecting various pros and cons for both of these guys - and that's not mentioning the dozens of other names up for the HOF each season, and the ones who will join that list next season and so on.

I did jump the gun comparing to flemmy, sure. I was mostly going by stats comparison and the way Wally made it seem like all the awards we're a big contributing factor, which werd all in s34.

Basically, Im just gonna blame @Wally . :p


Still. Idk how Biscuit got in then first ballot. He only had littletons and Turds with a similar career.

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#43

12-27-2018, 09:04 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: Also, like I have said numerous times, getting more ice time doesn't mean you add the same P/20 average to the extra time. It isn't a linear deal.

Guys with fewer minutes would assuredly have more points, but there is no guarantee they would score at the same pace (or higher or lower), which makes it incredibly hard to really compare.

Eh... I think the whole p/20 thing is a little sillytbh. Punishing players for being too good so they stay on the ice. That doesn't factor anything to defense. Nobody is looking at Crosby and going "but yeah he played so many minutes"

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#44

I will also say again, since it looks like Manious didn't get enough love...

12-26-2018, 02:23 PMSlappydoodle Wrote:
12-20-2018, 03:56 PMWally Wrote: With 26 and 24 votes, we unfortunately will not be inducting Big Manious nor Nicholas Pederson this season.

Good luck boys!



Y’all fucked up, plain and simple.


Look at how many votes those guys got. The bar is 35. Manious needed 9 and Pedersen needed 11. They are getting looks and are part of the conversation. Fleming had 5 votes in his first ballot. Lloren had 4. Clitsome had 5. All are currently in the HOF.

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#45

Just real quick: How Long is a player on the ballot before he or she is taken off?

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