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ArGarBarGar · 12-27-2018, 09:33 AM

12-27-2018, 09:30 AMJKortesi81 Wrote: Just real quick: How Long is a player on the ballot before he or she is taken off?

7 seasons.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
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Wally · 12-27-2018, 10:39 AM

12-27-2018, 09:05 AM.bojo Wrote:
12-27-2018, 08:56 AMztevans Wrote: Also, since this was kinda brushed over (catching up from AWOL these past few days), it was not his first ballot. It was his third, which reads like the consensus on when Pedersen will get in from what I'm gathering in this thread?

Flemmy definitely wasn't around as long as Pedey, but even in that shorter span he had more PPG seasons and just as many 100+ hit seasons (with better numbers in those seasons). It's easy to say his MVP season was an aberration because it was his only award-winning season, but it ... really wasn't?

A more interesting argument re: these two players, honestly, would be ice time. How much did Flemmy's numbers benefit from playing sometimes 1400 minutes in a season when Nicky, even at his peak, topped out at 1272 in his last season as a Panther? A quick and dirty and hardly conclusive "pro-rating" of Pedey's stats in his peak seasons to play double-shift minutes doesn't quite get him to Flemmy's peak during that time, but it does get him into the 64-68 point range, and what's to say more time against third-liners wouldn't have accounted for a couple of extra points here and there?

I say all of this to say, just from my experience voting on awards (none whatsoever with HOF), it's rarely as simple as anyone will want you to think at first glance. I could go on and on dissecting various pros and cons for both of these guys - and that's not mentioning the dozens of other names up for the HOF each season, and the ones who will join that list next season and so on.

I did jump the gun comparing to flemmy, sure. I was mostly going by stats comparison and the way Wally made it seem like all the awards we're a big contributing factor, which werd all in s34.

Basically, Im just gonna blame @Wally . :p

Still. Idk how Biscuit got in then first ballot. He only had littletons and Turds with a similar career.

You are suspended... retroactively adding the rule 4.z.1. Any mention of the word Wally will earn you a two week suspension without consideration of an appeal process. Smile

ztevans · 12-27-2018, 10:44 AM

12-27-2018, 09:08 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: I will also say again, since it looks like Manious didn't get enough love...

12-26-2018, 02:23 PMSlappydoodle Wrote: Y’all fucked up, plain and simple.

Look at how many votes those guys got. The bar is 35. Manious needed 9 and Pedersen needed 11. They are getting looks and are part of the conversation. Fleming had 5 votes in his first ballot. Lloren had 4. Clitsome had 5. All are currently in the HOF.

I only recently started paying more attention to the HOF process, but definitely remembered some of those single-digit numbers and was pleasantly surprised to see Bonk as close to the cutoff as he was. Couldn't remember if he was first or second ballot, though.

ArGarBarGar · 12-27-2018, 11:04 AM

12-27-2018, 10:44 AMztevans Wrote:
12-27-2018, 09:08 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: I will also say again, since it looks like Manious didn't get enough love...

Look at how many votes those guys got. The bar is 35. Manious needed 9 and Pedersen needed 11. They are getting looks and are part of the conversation. Fleming had 5 votes in his first ballot. Lloren had 4. Clitsome had 5. All are currently in the HOF.

I only recently started paying more attention to the HOF process, but definitely remembered some of those single-digit numbers and was pleasantly surprised to see Bonk as close to the cutoff as he was. Couldn't remember if he was first or second ballot, though.

This was his first ballot.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
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Mayuu · 12-27-2018, 11:31 AM

I'd agree if you removed the first F from the thread title.

RETIRED

Slappydoodle · 12-27-2018, 01:25 PM

12-27-2018, 09:08 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: I will also say again, since it looks like Manious didn't get enough love...

12-26-2018, 02:23 PMSlappydoodle Wrote: Y’all fucked up, plain and simple.

Look at how many votes those guys got. The bar is 35. Manious needed 9 and Pedersen needed 11. They are getting looks and are part of the conversation. Fleming had 5 votes in his first ballot. Lloren had 4. Clitsome had 5. All are currently in the HOF.

That quote isn't even from thos thread.

Anyone who wants to hear my take on all this need only listen to the BSH Bonk and i will be recording tomorrow night.

**.bojo** · 12-27-2018, 01:31 PM

Maybe bonk should have retired a season later so y'all wouldn't split the votes. :p

ArGarBarGar · 12-27-2018, 01:37 PM

12-27-2018, 01:25 PMSlappydoodle Wrote:
12-27-2018, 09:08 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: I will also say again, since it looks like Manious didn't get enough love...

Look at how many votes those guys got. The bar is 35. Manious needed 9 and Pedersen needed 11. They are getting looks and are part of the conversation. Fleming had 5 votes in his first ballot. Lloren had 4. Clitsome had 5. All are currently in the HOF.

That quote isn't even from thos thread.

It's relevant to the discussion which is why I brought it up.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
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ArGarBarGar · 12-27-2018, 01:54 PM

If someone wants to be mad, they should be mad at the fact that 35 is the bar for getting inducted and for some reason I forgot to add the "IN" marker on Timo Haas, who had 41 points.

So...congrats!

@InciteHysteria

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
[Image: IeEV7Iv.png]

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 12-27-2018, 01:57 PM

There was kind of an interesting trend in this HOF class imho because after Wolker, there were essentially two guys with a lot of longetivity (Pedersen, Manious) up against two guys with short careers but high peaks (Fleming, Haas) - and ultimately it was the guys with the shorter careers who made it in. It's not an approach I particularly agree with, Fleming was #4 on my ballot and Haas wasnt on it at all, but ultimately it comes down to the different philosophies when voting and it was a justifiable choice.

InciteHysteria · 12-27-2018, 02:07 PM

Oh shit. That's so awesome! Thank you all for voting me in. While Haas didn't have the longevity, he played great during his time in the league. I didn't think I'd ever make HOF. I just thought I'd be Top 10 in Goalie Legacy. <3

ArGarBarGar · 12-27-2018, 02:09 PM

12-27-2018, 01:57 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: There was kind of an interesting trend in this HOF class imho because after Wolker, there were essentially two guys with a lot of longetivity (Pedersen, Manious) up against two guys with short careers but high peaks (Fleming, Haas) - and ultimately it was the guys with the shorter careers who made it in. It's not an approach I particularly agree with, Fleming was #4 on my ballot and Haas wasnt on it at all, but ultimately it comes down to the different philosophies when voting and it was a justifiable choice.

Goaltenders are a weird position to judge, considering the number of goaltenders you are competing with is so small. But at the same time he was basically a McBride-lite for his career. Very similar win/loss records, 5 McBride nominations for Haas and McBride with 6 straight up wins, and he had an insane peak season in S39.

And honestly I think the current HOF is much kinder to players with longer careers than before I joined the committee.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
2nd in Goals (208), All-Time Assists Leader (765)*, All-Time Points Leader (973), 3rd in Hits (2587), All-Time Blocked Shots Leader (1882)*
*All-Time Leader Among All Skaters
Player Profile | Update Thread
[Image: IeEV7Iv.png]

Zombiewolf · 12-27-2018, 02:17 PM

12-27-2018, 11:31 AMMayuu Wrote: I'd agree if you removed the first F from the thread title.

HO sucks

Thank you Brandon, Fish, GeckoeyGecko, Karey, Kit, takethehorizon, and Ragnar for the sigs!
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Chris-McZehrl · 12-27-2018, 02:20 PM

12-27-2018, 02:09 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:
12-27-2018, 01:57 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: There was kind of an interesting trend in this HOF class imho because after Wolker, there were essentially two guys with a lot of longetivity (Pedersen, Manious) up against two guys with short careers but high peaks (Fleming, Haas) - and ultimately it was the guys with the shorter careers who made it in. It's not an approach I particularly agree with, Fleming was #4 on my ballot and Haas wasnt on it at all, but ultimately it comes down to the different philosophies when voting and it was a justifiable choice.

Goaltenders are a weird position to judge, considering the number of goaltenders you are competing with is so small. But at the same time he was basically a McBride-lite for his career. Very similar win/loss records, 5 McBride nominations for Haas and McBride with 6 straight up wins, and he had an insane peak season in S39.

And honestly I think the current HOF is much kinder to players with longer careers than before I joined the committee.

yep in the past we saw some 1, 2, 3 and so on season players! I never will get it that those players are in the HoF! there is no consistency or else just one, two or three season as "career"

Boomcheck · 12-27-2018, 04:28 PM

12-27-2018, 04:23 AMMike Izzy Wrote:
12-27-2018, 02:53 AMBoomcheck Wrote: We doing the Hall of Fame or Hall of Very Good? I could look at the hall and point out a guy or two and go 'Why is he in there?'

22 seasons as a very good player I would expect him to be pretty high up there in overall points produced/playoff leader boards and whatnot. 22 seasons.
Here's a rough idea of the awards these guys have in major awards voted on by the committee. I don't take this as the gospel or anything, there can be mistakes made in these.

Esa: None
Eriksson: League MVP/Playoff MVP
Garbznzo: League MVP/Stevensx5
Joe McK: League MVPx2/Darx2
Kane: League MVPx2/Darx2/Playoff MVP
D. Winter: None
Hallsy's forward: Has some MVPs and Dars, awards committee should change the jordan halls to taylor mcdavid since he's the same person and just changed names
LPF: None
Sarantez: None
Lloren: None
Randleman: League MVPX2/Darx2
Chris McZ: League MVP/Darx2
Adam Kylrad: Dar

There's clearly tiers within the list you even detailed and Pedersen is not in the upper echelon.
Winter and LFP have lead the league in statistical categories before I'm not a fan of Flacko and there's a reason he wasn't getting many awards despite leading the league in a bunch of categories.

Has anyone ever looked at Pedersen and went 'damn that guy is the best player at his position'
Pedersen top 10 scoring finishes:
S33 (T5)

Think that's it.

He'll have his # retired in Calgary, but it shouldn't be a shock that he didn't get in first ballot.

And I don't think he'll get into the Hall of Fame for being great, he'll get in for being very good over a long period of time. There are guys like Pedersen in the hall that have been very good over an extended period of time and I believe he will join them. Don't get me wrong, what Pedersen did isn't easy. Lots of one hit wonders that shouldn't be considered as good as Pedersen because they couldn't maintain any decent consistency.

The real HOF debate is goaltending. What gets them in?

372 words and not 1 word said on the 5 championship rings on his hand? Amazing.

A 1st line stud for 5 championships and your just going to bypass that as something not even worth adding in this post? 5 titles is the most championships in SHL history... are we dismissing all those titles as mid evil magic or good luck? ... it takes a player like Nicholas Pederson to be that great that he can score 869 points which is 8th all time.. yet still give a portion of his numbers towards the bigger cause.... and that should be reflected in the discussions that go on within the hall of fame group.

and if were being honest... what would those numbers had been if you put him in Chris Yorks situation over a portion of his career? It cant be all about how many tokens a player has in Argars league of distinguished players because the STHS rewards good players on shit teams. again something the committee should be adding into their equations.

Boomcheck.. I'm a big fan of yours! im just adding my counter in this discussion.. have a happy hollidays

Don't get me wrong, there's a reason I don't look at players like LPF or those ice time abusing forwards that highly. I even wanted teams to limit the overall ice time a forward is out there for.

Pedersen is very good, he's not great. In his PPG seasons he has never lead Calgary in scoring. Maybe the Dragons just didn't trust him in the role to be the man because it's not like they didn't give certain forwards minutes.

S30
Pedersen: 54 Points | 24.2 AMG
Anrikkannen: 55 Points | 24.4 AMG

S33
Pedersen: 59 Points | 24.3 AMG
Randleman: 64 Points |23.4 AMG

S35
Pedersen: 50 Points | 21.5 AMG
Randleman: 64 Points |27.2 AMG

S36
Pedersen: 50 Points | 22.4 AMG
Randleman: 74 Points | 27.5 AMG

Retire his number, he deserves that much. HOF has players inducted in the past 10 seasons that I find iffy, but Pedersen will make it in.

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