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ztevans · 04-23-2019, 08:16 AM

04-23-2019, 07:28 AM.bojo Wrote: Somebody make an excel sheet only smjhl GM's can edit with draft picks. They'd be in control of moving it. Google and Microsoft have history in case of auditing as well

I didn't read past the first page but this would be my solution going forward

Dammit, I'm actually mad I didn't have this idea while I was in SMJHL HO, Bojo. Fucking hell. You better be glad the Canes won last night.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 04-23-2019, 08:17 AM

What a stupid decision. Hope there is some way to appeal this.

Weretarantula · 04-23-2019, 08:20 AM

04-23-2019, 07:41 AMSami Wrote:
04-23-2019, 07:28 AM.bojo Wrote: Somebody make an excel sheet only smjhl GM's can edit with draft picks. They'd be in control of moving it. Google and Microsoft have history in case of auditing as well

I didn't read past the first page but this would be my solution going forward

This. No need to pay someone 3M if that one doesn't have any responsibility. If the GMs have to track the picks anyway they can just edit the excel sheet themselves.

A lot of people seem to be calling for my job to be mute, even though it was a previous tracker that commited this error, not me. I have worked hard to stay on top of the sheet, implemented the current Google sheet that we have, and apologised and changed any errors I have made as quickly as I can.

I understand you guys are saying this because HO is making GM's responsible for their picks, but I try and keep it as accurate as possible, so that it can be relied on. I reply to every trade to let the GM's know it's been processed, so that they have the chance to review my input and make sure there's no mistakes. If GM's would like more clarification once a trade has been processed I'm happy to discuss whatever might work better, or in addition to the current system.

Conditional picks are a whole other story, but I asterisk those to make them easier to see and track, and the notes have the links to said condition and also state what they are. It's kind of hard for me to know and track when a condition has been met most of the time, but the GM's let me know and I update it accordingly.

If all of that isn't enough to warrant me getting paid and making my job redundant so be it, but I've tried my best and at this stage of this thread that seems to be what most people want based on what I have read.

***WannabeFinn*** · 04-23-2019, 08:23 AM

Vacate STL’s championship

Reeeeeeeeee

Mayuu · 04-23-2019, 08:26 AM

04-23-2019, 08:20 AMWeretarantula Wrote:
04-23-2019, 07:41 AMSami Wrote: This. No need to pay someone 3M if that one doesn't have any responsibility. If the GMs have to track the picks anyway they can just edit the excel sheet themselves.

A lot of people seem to be calling for my job to be mute, even though it was a previous tracker that commited this error, not me. I have worked hard to stay on top of the sheet, implemented the current Google sheet that we have, and apologised and changed any errors I have made as quickly as I can.

I understand you guys are saying this because HO is making GM's responsible for their picks, but I try and keep it as accurate as possible, so that it can be relied on. I reply to every trade to let the GM's know it's been processed, so that they have the chance to review my input and make sure there's no mistakes. If GM's would like more clarification once a trade has been processed I'm happy to discuss whatever might work better, or in addition to the current system.

Conditional picks are a whole other story, but I asterisk those to make them easier to see and track, and the notes have the links to said condition and also state what they are. It's kind of hard for me to know and track when a condition has been met most of the time, but the GM's let me know and I update it accordingly.

If all of that isn't enough to warrant me getting paid and making my job redundant so be it, but I've tried my best and at this stage of this thread that seems to be what most people want based on what I have read.

I don't think any of the people that's voicing their displeasure is aiming it at you personally, I know you work hard on doing your job proper and you are good at it. What I'd like is the draft tracker sheet's purpose more defined.

Who is it for?
When is it to be used?
What responsibilities does a GM have to the the trackers updater and vice versa?

If all these things are clearly defined there would not be such a big deal today.

RETIRED

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 04-23-2019, 08:42 AM

Really the main issue I have with this is that it seems needlessly cruel. Why punish a team but then almost gleefully make sure that the team that was screwed over doesn't get that asset that the other team lost, essentially making this a situation where there is only losers (STL, COL, the Pick Tracker and, ultimately, HO)? Even the people in this thread who think that COL is partially to blame as well still seem to agree that they should've gotten compensation. It would be so much cleaner and fairer of a ruling and also more consistent with past decisions.

ArGarBarGar · 04-23-2019, 09:02 AM

Wait, isn't the issue with Colorado that they should have noticed something was amiss when they traded for a pick that they ended up not being able to use?

Did the GM position change hands or did they just forget about it?

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***WannabeFinn*** · 04-23-2019, 09:07 AM

04-23-2019, 09:02 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: Wait, isn't the issue with Colorado that they should have noticed something was amiss when they traded for a pick that they ended up not being able to use?

Did the GM position change hands or did they just forget about it?

Should they have noticed? Yeah, probably.
Did the GM position change? Yes, but Alaska was co-GM at the time of the trade. I guess Alaska was still Head GM then. Kimmy, who accepted the trade, was his Co.
Did the person paid to track draft picks mess up? Yup.

So here we are.

GCool · 04-23-2019, 09:12 AM

I don't think anyone should be punished because everyone is at fault. To place blame on, much less punish, any single party here is a mistake.

TML99 · 04-23-2019, 09:14 AM

I assumed the Draft post was correct, I assumed the pick tracker did their job, I assumed too many things and made an ass of myself and that's on me, 100% my fault I cannot speak to the mistakes of others because that's out of my control I can just take ownership for my oversight.

there is a lesson to be learned here, I apologize to HO on behalf of STL for ignorantly using a pick that we traded away.

There are a lot of good points being made here on both sides but at the end of the day we really can only control what we say or do, its generally safe to never assume someone did their job correctly and to double check everything, yea its sucks you cant just rely 110% on people but such is life, mistakes happen.

As a manager at work irl I cant assume my employees are doing their jobs 100% correct 100% of the time, that's why there are peer reviews, checklists and whatnot, if they mess it its just as much my fault as it is theirs.

I'm sorry that Colorado got the short end of the stick here, I feel terrible about it my apologies to @39alaska39 and Colorado

***WannabeFinn*** · 04-23-2019, 09:14 AM

04-23-2019, 09:12 AMGCool Wrote: I don't think anyone should be punished because everyone is at fault. To place blame on, much less punish, any single party here is a mistake.

Everyone being at fault isn’t a get out of jail free card, especially for St. Louis in this situation.

hhh81 · 04-23-2019, 09:16 AM

04-23-2019, 09:07 AMWannabeFinn Wrote:
04-23-2019, 09:02 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: Wait, isn't the issue with Colorado that they should have noticed something was amiss when they traded for a pick that they ended up not being able to use?

Did the GM position change hands or did they just forget about it?
Should they have noticed? Yeah, probably.
Did the GM position change? Yes, but Alaska was co-GM at the time of the trade.
Did the person paid to track draft picks mess up? Yup.

So here we are.

alaska was head GM at that time, but only for like 2 weeks. I think he owns his mistake and understands the role he and COL management played here.

We should have caught it sooner. We didn't.

GCool · 04-23-2019, 09:19 AM

04-23-2019, 09:14 AMWannabeFinn Wrote:
04-23-2019, 09:12 AMGCool Wrote: I don't think anyone should be punished because everyone is at fault. To place blame on, much less punish, any single party here is a mistake.
Everyone being at fault isn’t a get out of jail free card, especially for St. Louis in this situation.

I understand, but in this particular instance literally every party involved (thanks, JSS...) missed it. I think HO missed their opportunity to issue an appropriate punishment and this is entirely reactionary--to their own miss, to Colorado's miss, and to the draft pick guy's miss.

*Katth* · 04-23-2019, 09:24 AM

04-23-2019, 09:14 AMTML99 Wrote: I assumed the Draft post was correct, I assumed the pick tracker did their job, I assumed too many things and made an ass of myself and that's on me, 100% my fault I cannot speak to the mistakes of others because that's out of my control I can just take ownership for my oversight.

there is a lesson to be learned here, I apologize to HO on behalf of STL for ignorantly using a pick that we traded away.

There are a lot of good points being made here on both sides but at the end of the day we really can only control what we say or do, its generally safe to never assume someone did their job correctly and to double check everything, yea its sucks you cant just rely 110% on people but such is life, mistakes happen.

As a manager at work irl I cant assume my employees are doing their jobs 100% correct 100% of the time, that's why there are peer reviews, checklists and whatnot, if they mess it its just as much my fault as it is theirs.

I'm sorry that Colorado got the short end of the stick here, I feel terrible about it my apologies to @39alaska39 and Colorado

It takes a lot to admit your at fault. Mistake is made and a punishment is given. If the punishment fits the mistake, I don't know. I haven't been around for that long, but we can move on now.

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Segi · 04-23-2019, 12:16 PM

04-22-2019, 11:56 PMztevans Wrote:
04-22-2019, 11:49 PMBDonini Wrote: I still don't understand all the outrage in this thread. It's like JNH said here, it's still the GM's responsibility.

If my manager at work is responsible for a task and they hand that task off to me, I'm being paid to do that task but it doesn't clear my manager of his responsibility. If I mess up, I'll be held accountable but so will my manager as the task was their responsibility in the first place. Yes, there was a pick tracker and he didn't do his job properly but if a GM also has the responsibility to track his own picks then he's also partially at fault.

Imo there's no right or wrong option in this situation, HO could've justifiably given COL compensation for the pick just like they could justifiably deny COL of compensation for the pick.

I guess my biggest issue is that there's a well-established precedent for this exact scenario. When a pick gets double-traded, the offending team loses an extra pick and the "receiving" team still gets the pick. This precedent dates back several scenes and came back up very recently.

To go away from that precedent suddenly now because "it's the other team's fault too" ignores that in every other instance we've applied this result, the other team could have spotted the error as well. Furthermore, HO seems to be leaning a bit on "Well, we've changed pick trackers since then" which, like, yeah, both teams have changed at least one GM since then. That's only evidence of how badly the ball was dropped by all parties. So making an exception to the precedent on this one occasion because "It's sorta Colorado's fault too" is really dangerous, imo.

These are really two different issues. We can't expect from a GM to double check if a pick they trade for is available, but we definitely can expect GMs to keep track of which picks they have traded away and which picks they received.

I'm gonna address the whole thing now that I'm finally at home, because it was really me, who cinvinced the rest of HO about the whole thing. Every argument I've read in this thread so far, has come up in the internal discussion in HO and I can really stay behind the decision. So if you have any new point, I'm open to hearing it. I'm also open to criticism about SMJHL HO in general. I know, we can do better and I give my best to do so.

With that said, let me explain why I'm convinced that our reaction was adequate in this case:

There are 3 parties at fault in this case:

STL management, who picked at a position they shouldn't have and therefore got a free player.
COL management, who saw the wrong draft order posted and didn't remember that they should own the pick in quesiton.
The pick tracker, who didn't process the trade correctly, which lead to the wrong draft order being posted.

If you want to blame HO for not firing the pick tracker sooner, that's fair. But you can't expect from HO, to go over every trade from the last couple of seasons to double check the draft order, before posting it.

Colorado and St. Louis made the exact same mistake in this case - not keeping track of their own picks. Sure, Colorado ended up getting the short stick in the whole thing, but that doesn't change the fact that they just as much at fault here as St. Louis is. If we simply gave Colorado their pick back, we're saying that you don't have to keep track of the picks, you've traded for, because if you miss one, we'll just punish the other team and hand it back to you. That's not how we keep these situations from happening.
St. Louis got taken away two picks, because they actually got a player out of the trade and we can't unmake that.

For anyone who doesn't know yet, the picktracker in question has been fired and @Weretarantula is doing a great job as pick tracker so far. Should a mistake ever happen to him or someone who does the job in the future, we expect GMs to catch it before the draft, so a situation like this will never appear again.

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