Login

Symmetrik · 04-23-2019, 01:43 PM

04-23-2019, 01:33 PMnour Wrote: I'm not trying to be a dick, but how is Colorado at fault for relying on the pick tracker to remember this trade happened, but HO isn't at fault for relying on the pick tracker when posting the draft order? Is the pick tracker supposed to be reliable or not? For Colorado, it can't be the one, true resource to keep track of their picks, and its their fault for relying on it, but for HO, relying on it is expected and the fact that it wasn't accurate is entirely on the pick tracker and not HO? To me this sounds like the role of pick tracker is incredibly undefined here. No one is disputing either of the 3 faults you brought up, but its asinine to say HO isn't a 4th branch also at fault here. Blaming everybody but yourselves seems lazy

Because Colorado only needs to use it to track their own picks. HO needs every team's picks.

nour · 04-23-2019, 01:44 PM

04-23-2019, 01:43 PMSymmetrik Wrote:
04-23-2019, 01:33 PMnour Wrote: I'm not trying to be a dick, but how is Colorado at fault for relying on the pick tracker to remember this trade happened, but HO isn't at fault for relying on the pick tracker when posting the draft order? Is the pick tracker supposed to be reliable or not? For Colorado, it can't be the one, true resource to keep track of their picks, and its their fault for relying on it, but for HO, relying on it is expected and the fact that it wasn't accurate is entirely on the pick tracker and not HO? To me this sounds like the role of pick tracker is incredibly undefined here. No one is disputing either of the 3 faults you brought up, but its asinine to say HO isn't a 4th branch also at fault here. Blaming everybody but yourselves seems lazy

Because Colorado only needs to use it to track their own picks. HO needs every team's picks.

okay but the pick tracker failed at both of these roles? It’s not like the pick tracker horribly failed HO and served Colorado perfectly

**First GM in SMJHL history to win 3 Four Star Cups back-to-back-to-back**

***CampinKiller*** · 04-23-2019, 01:50 PM

What this thread has devolved to

nour · 04-23-2019, 01:51 PM

04-23-2019, 01:41 PMSegi Wrote:
04-23-2019, 01:33 PMnour Wrote: I'm not trying to be a dick, but how is Colorado at fault for relying on the pick tracker to remember this trade happened, but HO isn't at fault for relying on the pick tracker when posting the draft order? Is the pick tracker supposed to be reliable or not? For Colorado, it can't be the one, true resource to keep track of their picks, and its their fault for relying on it, but for HO, relying on it is expected and the fact that it wasn't accurate is entirely on the pick tracker and not HO? To me this sounds like the role of pick tracker is incredibly undefined here. No one is disputing either of the 3 faults you brought up, but its asinine to say HO isn't a 4th branch also at fault here. Blaming everybody but yourselves seems lazy

04-23-2019, 12:16 PMSegi Wrote: But you can't expect from HO, to go over every trade from the last couple of seasons to double check the draft order, before posting it.

If we needed to double check ourselves, we wouldn't need the pick tracker. We don't ask GM's to double check everything, just their own picks. We do our best to make sure the pick tracker is doing his job and yeah, maybe HO at that time didn't do enough. But you can't ask of us to go over every single trade before a draft. On the other hand, a lot of GMs agree that we can expect of them to keep track of their own draft picks.

HO of the past DID go over every trade and make sure it was legal and worked, so its not that you can’t do it, it’s just that its incredibly difficult, and I’m not denying that whatsoever. Keeping track of the picks moving in this league is such a pain in the ass and you’ve got my full understanding there. But it doesn’t take a lot of empathy to understand that without a resource this job became difficult for Colorado as well, especially with changing management.

I guess what i’m trying to say is the punishment feels needlessly cold and heartless, and it feels like HO doesn’t care about the league’s opinion at large. No one would be upset if Colorado was compensated the pick, but A LOT of people are upset that they weren’t. What’s the point in doubling down on a stance where the alternative has 0 repercussions?

**First GM in SMJHL history to win 3 Four Star Cups back-to-back-to-back**

Segi · 04-23-2019, 01:52 PM

04-23-2019, 01:41 PMztevans Wrote: Seriously, I'm not trying to demand perfection from HO. I've been there. But literally just compare these two posts.

04-22-2019, 09:24 PMNobody Wrote:
As many people now know (thanks @JSS...) The St. Louis Scarecrows used a pick in the S46 draft that they did not possess. The S46 pick was traded to the Colorado Raptors in exchange for the rights to a player. This error was not caught until recently. As it has been stated in the past, it falls on the team to ensure that picks are tracked correctly. This was made even more clear during the changeover of our pick tracker.

The punishment for this offence is as follows. The Scarecrows will give up their next non reddit 3rd round pick to cover the S46 pick that they should not have had, The Colorado Raptors will NOT receive this pick. In addition the Scarecrows will forfiet an additional 3rd round non reddit pick.

02-14-2018, 11:02 PMstorm Wrote: Hello everyone,

In the past few days the SMJHL Head Office has noticed two instances of teams being punished with a loss of a pick, and then using that pick for drafting or transactions. These teams are not at fault, however, as it was our duty to ensure the draft pick tracker as well as other facets of the SMJHL were updated properly to ensure a situation like this wouldn't arise. While we're incredibly embarrassed by this whole situation, we still have a responsibility to rectify our past mistakes.The picks in question are Halifax's S40 3rd round selection, as well as Kelowna's S39 3rd round selection. After speaking with the two current GM's of the teams in question, and some lengthy discussion in the Head Office, we decided the best course of action was to forfeit the teams S42 3rd round selection, and should S42 be a reddit draft (since 3rd's in reddit drafts have much more value), we'd be willing to shift that pick to S43.

Again, this is a situation we're deeply embarrassed by and we're actively taking measures to ensure something like this doesn't happen again.

Thanks for your time.

The first one assumes no blame on the part of HO or the pick tracker for not properly tracking picks even though the pick tracker is a league-paid job. The first one even goes as far as to shame a GM who has brought the situation to public right after the lack of a timely resolution.

The second one displays shame and an acknowledgement that, if HO had done its job properly, we wouldn't be having this issue. The second indicates a proper discourse between all parties to reach an amicable solution and a pledge by HO to do better in the future rather than shovel the responsibility on GMs.

1. I wasn't a member of HO when the older case was made public, but as far as I can tell, HO failed to notify the pick tracker of the forfeited picks. I'm not sure, if I had come to the same conclusion that the teams were at no fault there, though.

2. It's nice of you that you did the pick tracker's job for free before it existed, but as I understand it, the job was created so HO wouldn't have to do that anymore. If we did it anyway, why have the job at all?

Segi · 04-23-2019, 01:58 PM

04-23-2019, 01:51 PMnour Wrote:
04-23-2019, 01:41 PMSegi Wrote: If we needed to double check ourselves, we wouldn't need the pick tracker. We don't ask GM's to double check everything, just their own picks. We do our best to make sure the pick tracker is doing his job and yeah, maybe HO at that time didn't do enough. But you can't ask of us to go over every single trade before a draft. On the other hand, a lot of GMs agree that we can expect of them to keep track of their own draft picks.
HO of the past DID go over every trade and make sure it was legal and worked, so its not that you can’t do it, it’s just that its incredibly difficult, and I’m not denying that whatsoever. Keeping track of the picks moving in this league is such a pain in the ass and you’ve got my full understanding there. But it doesn’t take a lot of empathy to understand that without a resource this job became difficult for Colorado as well, especially with changing management.

I guess what i’m trying to say is the punishment feels needlessly cold and heartless, and it feels like HO doesn’t care about the league’s opinion at large. No one would be upset if Colorado was compensated the pick, but A LOT of people are upset that they weren’t. What’s the point in doubling down on a stance where the alternative has 0 repercussions?

I've actually talked to quite a lot of people that agree with me on this topic. It's just that they don't reply here. The alternative doesn't have 0 repercussions. It leads to GMs saying "fuck it" if we ask them to double check their draft picks, which can lead to other situations like this.

I'm honestly surprised, no one has called to take away the cup from St. Louis. (Not that we'd do that) They played the season with an additional player that they shouldn't have had. I don't want to see that situation again. And if we just say that we're not gonna punish anyone because several people fucked up at the same time, we will.

ztevans · 04-23-2019, 01:59 PM

Actually, y'all are right. This is a hopeless conversation. Good day.

nour · 04-23-2019, 02:07 PM

04-23-2019, 01:58 PMSegi Wrote:
04-23-2019, 01:51 PMnour Wrote: HO of the past DID go over every trade and make sure it was legal and worked, so its not that you can’t do it, it’s just that its incredibly difficult, and I’m not denying that whatsoever. Keeping track of the picks moving in this league is such a pain in the ass and you’ve got my full understanding there. But it doesn’t take a lot of empathy to understand that without a resource this job became difficult for Colorado as well, especially with changing management.

I guess what i’m trying to say is the punishment feels needlessly cold and heartless, and it feels like HO doesn’t care about the league’s opinion at large. No one would be upset if Colorado was compensated the pick, but A LOT of people are upset that they weren’t. What’s the point in doubling down on a stance where the alternative has 0 repercussions?

I've actually talked to quite a lot of people that agree with me on this topic. It's just that they don't reply here. The alternative doesn't have 0 repercussions. It leads to GMs saying "fuck it" if we ask them to double check their draft picks, which can lead to other situations like this.

I'm honestly surprised, no one has called to take away the cup from St. Louis. (Not that we'd do that) They played the season with an additional player that they shouldn't have had. I don't want to see that situation again. And if we just say that we're not gonna punish anyone because several people fucked up at the same time, we will.

You and Nobody have both said this, but I’m more inclined to trust the opinion of the people actually in this thread voicing concerns then the people in your PMs agreeing and just staying silent. The people here are the ones with the problems, most of the people I’ve talked to have a problem with this, so we could he said she said all day, but the point is a majority of people here don’t like it.

Zach also brought up that harsher punishments are gonna do nothing to make everyone fall in line. Shit is still gonna happen, this won’t change that. I think you have a grossly pessimistic view of the GMs you’re supposed to be working with if you think they’re all not just as interested as you are in a smoothly run, functioning league where stuff like this just doesn’t happen.

Screwing Colorado out of a pick they were already screwed out helps no one, it’s obviously just made a good portion of this site, including the a lot of the Junior GMs (again, the guys youre supposed to be working with, not against) unhappy, I’d argue that makes them more likely to say “fuck it” in the future than granting a compensation pick for a team that was screwed by a lot of unfortunate circumstance. Whole response from HO just feels cold for the sake of it.

**First GM in SMJHL history to win 3 Four Star Cups back-to-back-to-back**

BDonini · 04-23-2019, 02:10 PM

The good news for all the people up in arms about how clueless and evil HO is is that they have a chance to do something about it instead of complaining in a hopeless thread.

ToeDragon84 · 04-23-2019, 02:15 PM

04-23-2019, 01:59 PMztevans Wrote: Actually, y'all are right. This is a hopeless conversation. Good day.

[Image: e411b5c4321fffada520a2dd47f493e6.jpg]

nour · 04-23-2019, 02:17 PM

04-23-2019, 02:10 PMBDonini Wrote: The good news for all the people up in arms about how clueless and evil HO is is that they have a chance to do something about it instead of complaining in a hopeless thread.

Noted, sending an app tonight. Let’s hope Nobody wants to take it seriously this time.

**First GM in SMJHL history to win 3 Four Star Cups back-to-back-to-back**

***DrunkenTeddy*** · 04-23-2019, 02:18 PM

I think in some cases the vocal minority/non-vocal majority thing can be true, but reading this thread I don't feel like this is one of them.

I am not in the SMJHL GM discord, so I wasn't there to see the draft, but generally HO tags the next team to make their selection. HO would have tagged STL instead of COL in this case and STL would have made the pick. Placing the blame solely on the GMs is a mistake as the blame is really shared between two team's GMs, the user who manages the pick tracker and HO itself for not properly supervising this position. If we take this as an honest mistake by all 4 parties the simplest solution would be to give a future similar pick from STL to COL as compensation. If you feel like punishing the GMs on top of that maybe forfeit a late pick each, but I really do think this was an honest mistake on all parties.

|

Segi · 04-23-2019, 02:19 PM

04-23-2019, 02:07 PMnour Wrote:
04-23-2019, 01:58 PMSegi Wrote: I've actually talked to quite a lot of people that agree with me on this topic. It's just that they don't reply here. The alternative doesn't have 0 repercussions. It leads to GMs saying "fuck it" if we ask them to double check their draft picks, which can lead to other situations like this.

I'm honestly surprised, no one has called to take away the cup from St. Louis. (Not that we'd do that) They played the season with an additional player that they shouldn't have had. I don't want to see that situation again. And if we just say that we're not gonna punish anyone because several people fucked up at the same time, we will.

You and Nobody have both said this, but I’m more inclined to trust the opinion of the people actually in this thread voicing concerns then the people in your PMs agreeing and just staying silent. The people here are the ones with the problems, most of the people I’ve talked to have a problem with this, so we could he said she said all day, but the point is a majority of people here don’t like it.

Why don't we vote on every situation that arises in the future? I don't feel like my job is to make everyone happy, it's to make sure to keep the league running.

04-23-2019, 02:07 PMnour Wrote: Zach also brought up that harsher punishments are gonna do nothing to make everyone fall in line. Shit is still gonna happen, this won’t change that. I think you have a grossly pessimistic view of the GMs you’re supposed to be working with if you think they’re all not just as interested as you are in a smoothly run, functioning league where stuff like this just doesn’t happen.

We've got the feeling that some GMs simply don't think that keeping track of their assets is part of their job. With this, we made it very clear that it is. If every traded pick is actually confirmed to be allocated correctly in the draft order by two people, we won't get to this situation again.

04-23-2019, 02:07 PMnour Wrote: Screwing Colorado out of a pick they were already screwed out helps no one, it’s obviously just made a good portion of this site, including the a lot of the Junior GMs (again, the guys youre supposed to be working with, not against) unhappy, I’d argue that makes them more likely to say “fuck it” in the future than granting a compensation pick for a team that was screwed by a lot of unfortunate circumstance. Whole response from HO just feels cold for the sake of it.

Let me explain again, how we've come to this: STL should get punished, because they played with a roster that was too strong for a whole season. But the mistake that STL management made is exactly the same as the mistake COL management made. Why would we punish one team and not the other?
If you can't remember that you got a certain pick in a trade, you shouldn't expect to just get it handed back at a later date.

JumpierPegasus · 04-23-2019, 02:19 PM

This would have never happened if we didn't ban formx

***hhh81*** · 04-23-2019, 02:21 PM

04-23-2019, 02:10 PMBDonini Wrote: The good news for all the people up in arms about how clueless and evil HO is is that they have a chance to do something about it instead of complaining in a hopeless thread.

Unless nobody picks TDZ to fill my position, which I think would be a horrible idea.

I'll say it publicly that i hope a newer user wants to step up and take on a more significant role for HO. I encourage any newer user who wants to get more involved to message me on Discord or on here and I'll answer any questions you have. Just please apply.

EDIT: I've said it a few other places, but I'll add it here. We as HO own part of the responsibility for this mess. It's not solely on GMs or the pick updater, though all those have a part in it, as well. Listening to the feedback from some of you over the last day, I don't think we came up with the best solution to this situation. It is done, and I hope the continuing HO learns and does better in the future. I appreciate the feedback I've seen over the last day, both shared in anger and calm. Thank you.

I can only speak for myself when I say I have tried over my three seasons tied to HO to do well by the league however I could. I don't think we've gotten it right every time, but I believe for the most part we've tried. HO owes the players and GMs in the league more. More accountability, more clarity, more openness to their feedback. Period.

Navigation

Extra Menu

About us