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HO Restructure
#61

10-21-2019, 05:39 PMgrok Wrote:
10-21-2019, 05:34 PMBaelor Swift Wrote: Pay them

Maybe I'm just speaking for myself and maybe I was the wrong guy for the job, but it would take a full time salary to go back to any level of SHL management. No amount of SHL currency is enough

Give HO fucking PT passes, honestly. Give some sort of incentive for people to put HO responsibilities ahead of all other SHL responsibilities and an incentive to power through the inevitable criticism to add stability to league leadership so that shit can actually get done. Like eggy is even admitting it here - he can't motivate people to contribute enough as HO members.

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08-24-2018, 01:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Ah yes, the veteran meme player. A surefire bet for maybe 400 TPE Tongue
05-23-2020, 02:25 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Scoop AINEC
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#62

10-21-2019, 05:51 PMBaelor Swift Wrote:
10-21-2019, 05:39 PMgrok Wrote: Maybe I'm just speaking for myself and maybe I was the wrong guy for the job, but it would take a full time salary to go back to any level of SHL management. No amount of SHL currency is enough

Give HO fucking PT passes, honestly. Give some sort of incentive for people to put HO responsibilities ahead of all other SHL responsibilities and an incentive to power through the inevitable criticism to add stability to league leadership so that shit can actually get done. Like eggy is even admitting it here - he can't motivate people to contribute enough as HO members.

I'm not arguing against you, promise. It's a scope question and I think you're on the right side of it


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#63

Wait, did the conversation legit change from "term limits bad, don't make people quit" to "term limits good, lets people quit easier"?

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#64

10-21-2019, 05:59 PMGrapehead Wrote: Wait, did the conversation legit change from "term limits bad, don't make people quit" to "term limits good, lets people quit easier"?

I don't think so. What I'm trying to say is that removing HO terms as a "solution" to too much turnover and being unable to motivate HO members to do enough, which is what eggy has been saying, is ridiculous.

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08-24-2018, 01:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Ah yes, the veteran meme player. A surefire bet for maybe 400 TPE Tongue
05-23-2020, 02:25 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Scoop AINEC
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#65

10-21-2019, 06:05 PMBaelor Swift Wrote:
10-21-2019, 05:59 PMGrapehead Wrote: Wait, did the conversation legit change from "term limits bad, don't make people quit" to "term limits good, lets people quit easier"?

I don't think so. What I'm trying to say is that removing HO terms as a "solution" to too much turnover and being unable to motivate HO members to do enough, which is what eggy has been saying, is ridiculous.

It's not about motivation, it's about treatment of people. You could give me $10M, a PT pass, and whatever else, but there are certain times when you just get treated like dogs/trash/horrible people, all because you are in the Head Office. This wears you down, inch by inch, comment by comment. The constant lack of respect for people is just pathetic. I am honestly surprised that people are even still joining HO. I can guarantee you that nobody joins Head Office to do nothing or to just sit complacent. Most people join itching to help, want to grow the site, want to be involved, and then one thing goes wrong and the witness the mistreatment of those in our position and are like NOPE! SCREW THIS I'M OUT. I don't blame them, but you all blame us for not keeping people around. It might be time to look at yourself/ourselves and see why people aren't working on things quickly or why there is a high turn over rate.

We take time to deliberate so we don't get yelled at, but we get yelled at either way. It's the biggest lose lose situation you can be put into.

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#66

10-21-2019, 06:13 PMSDCore Wrote: We take time to deliberate so we don't get yelled at, but we get yelled at either way. It's the biggest lose lose situation you can be put into.

To piggyback on this point, the best part is getting comments like “Well, HO in the past ruled on this faster/slower/harsher/lighter so they must hate me.” 90% of the time when I saw this during my brief time in HO I was getting compared to people who aren’t in HO anymore, often people who aren’t even *active* anymore (wonder why!), or hell, not even SHL HO at all. Whoever takes my place will probably never be able to outrun the ghost of some decision I was part of - maybe even one I didn’t even agree with! - and they’ll get blamed for something that was “my” fault.

We need to spend less time hunting heads and more time being productive in our conversations about improving the league. Disagreement is fine. Debate is fine. Being jack wagons doesn’t help anyone except overinflated egos.

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#67

10-21-2019, 06:13 PMSDCore Wrote: We take time to deliberate so we don't get yelled at, but we get yelled at either way. It's the biggest lose lose situation you can be put into.

I don't know how it could be implemented because I'm sure HO discussions are more fluid than meetings. But for transparency it's not uncommon to record minutes in Board of Directors meetings so other stakeholders can clearly see what was discussed, who supported what decisions and why certain decisions were made. It humanizes the decisions and would definitely help with transparency.

Also maybe consider a regularly scheduled general meeting (once every 3 months?) where users can discuss the current state of the league, current initiatives and updates on previously mentioned initiatives.

It forces accountability on the part of HO as it gives a clear timeline of discussions and gives users a better idea of what's happening. It helps HO because it becomes much more obvious what went into the decisions and prevents them from consistently needing to re-explain themselves.

Finally, I mentioned it before, but seriously consider hiring an ombudsman (or maybe the owners appoint one). If there's a person in HO chats who's not a member of HO but their role is to make sure HO is being consistent and acting in a proper manner, it may give a lot of users peace of mind.

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#68

10-21-2019, 03:15 PMEggy216 Wrote:
10-21-2019, 02:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Dude.. how long has it been like this? It would explain SO much about this league if it’s being ran by virtually a single person.

2 and a half years give or take?

Seriously though it comes and goes depending on who's in HO. There was an instance a few seasons back where I asked for something to be done because I was out of town, I came back the next day and there had been conversations about something completely unrelated and it had never gotten done. Unfortunately the people who are willing to help me tend to be the ones who leave because they can't deal with the toxicity, so I just keep on trucking.

I 100% understand this. Eggy has been nothing but great to work with when it comes to offseason tasks since i've been Updating Head. The biggest thing i asked for was just communication of the GM Tasks because there is a ton of paperwork that has to be done to get the players and teams ready for the regular season. Knowing what it takes to prepare the Update Department during the offseason, and having recently been able to have some help with others being able to do the job. The biggest thing that I have come across, for myself, is the Training others how to do it and trying to communicate the need for similarity. If I am able to do everything myself I know exactly how i like it. When ML or Flareon help out they do stuff a slightly different way, some of this is personal OCD. Main point being that the hardest thing in the offseason is the consistency of the job and having people to help is the greatest.

That said Eggland's best, lemme know if theres anything myself or the update department can help do to try to limit or decrease your workload. I know with some of the new rules and enforcement's on updating we will be trying to keep much better paper trails.

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09-05-2018, 10:04 PMBeaver Wrote: Wow look what the PT affiliation has done to our pristine league.
12-19-2018, 12:31 AMBeaver Wrote: I personally blame the PT affiliation for handing out massive amounts of free TPE to all these players, inflating the TPE they're at when they get called up.
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#69

10-21-2019, 07:15 PMBlastmeaway Wrote:
10-21-2019, 03:15 PMEggy216 Wrote: 2 and a half years give or take?

Seriously though it comes and goes depending on who's in HO. There was an instance a few seasons back where I asked for something to be done because I was out of town, I came back the next day and there had been conversations about something completely unrelated and it had never gotten done. Unfortunately the people who are willing to help me tend to be the ones who leave because they can't deal with the toxicity, so I just keep on trucking.

I 100% understand this. Eggy has been nothing but great to work with when it comes to offseason tasks since i've been Updating Head. The biggest thing i asked for was just communication of the GM Tasks because there is a ton of paperwork that has to be done to get the players and teams ready for the regular season. Knowing what it takes to prepare the Update Department during the offseason, and having recently been able to have some help with others being able to do the job. The biggest thing that I have come across, for myself, is the Training others how to do it and trying to communicate the need for similarity. If I am able to do everything myself I know exactly how i like it. When ML or Flareon help out they do stuff a slightly different way, some of this is personal OCD. Main point being that the hardest thing in the offseason is the consistency of the job and having people to help is the greatest.

That said Eggland's best, lemme know if theres anything myself or the update department can help do to try to limit or decrease your workload. I know with some of the new rules and enforcement's on updating we will be trying to keep much better paper trails.

You've done so much to help me already blast, I don't think there's anything more I could ask for. Appreciate it though.

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#70

10-21-2019, 06:13 PMSDCore Wrote:
10-21-2019, 06:05 PMBaelor Swift Wrote: I don't think so. What I'm trying to say is that removing HO terms as a "solution" to too much turnover and being unable to motivate HO members to do enough, which is what eggy has been saying, is ridiculous.

It's not about motivation, it's about treatment of people. You could give me $10M, a PT pass, and whatever else, but there are certain times when you just get treated like dogs/trash/horrible people, all because you are in the Head Office. This wears you down, inch by inch, comment by comment. The constant lack of respect for people is just pathetic. I am honestly surprised that people are even still joining HO. I can guarantee you that nobody joins Head Office to do nothing or to just sit complacent. Most people join itching to help, want to grow the site, want to be involved, and then one thing goes wrong and the witness the mistreatment of those in our position and are like NOPE! SCREW THIS I'M OUT. I don't blame them, but you all blame us for not keeping people around. It might be time to look at yourself/ourselves and see why people aren't working on things quickly or why there is a high turn over rate.

We take time to deliberate so we don't get yelled at, but we get yelled at either way. It's the biggest lose lose situation you can be put into.

New guy butting in on big guy thread again - but I can tell you that as a fairly new person to the league this is how I see the job that HO members hold.   I definitely think it's an extremely important set of jobs, but even as a broke new guy with an opinion on everything, I wouldn't apply for HO in the current state with a salary due to how EVERY SINGLE THING is nitpicked to the nth degree and you are completely treated like shit.  I'm here because I want to be here and nothing will get me to log out permanently as quickly as being shit on regularly when trying to help.  

To take Nour's original statement:

Quote:My pitch to fix this is to restructure HO so that the heads/commissioners of all the SHL's departments are members of HO, and work together on the behalf of their area of the site to ensure all decisions made by HO factor in all of the site's various groups

Rather than putting in place a formal structure - can we handle this a bit more, dare I say, Congress like?   Have a set of people - be that department heads, GMs, and even a few "regular" people (voted in maybe?  serves as the ombudsman like Salami stated) as part of core debates.  It isn't a job per se, but just have a sounding area that has a representative sample from various groups.  This should check a transparency box that a lot are looking for - without having to put every single conversation in the public eye as well.  Debates can still happen behind closed doors (as they should) but various representatives to validate that things are on the up and up.

One of the areas I think I see the most amount of shit stirring is punishment threads and I think that HO honestly does try - but the critics have a leg to stand on too when they say that punishments for similar crimes are sometimes handled differently.  Earlier today I started walking through the punishments forum and making a log of infraction types and punishments with the hope to standardize some of the infractions into "categories" of issues with a severity modifier to manage predefined punishments.  However, as you probably guessed, this is not super straightforward.  I'm going to work on it a while longer and try to iron out some of the kinks and throw it in a post some day in the future.  But the idea being if things are standardized there can't be nearly as much finger pointing when punishments are handed out but can still leave a bit of discretion in there too for the edge cases and some of the most egregious violations.

Following that it seems to be a series of communication issues.  People management 101 (which this effectively is) is to communicate regularly and set achievable and measurable goals.   Someone mentioned setting up a "meeting" but I can see how that would be hard to do with time zones and the like.  Can we get a "Status Report" sort of post where each department contributes with their priorities and concerns on a semi regular basis, perhaps monthly or per even once per season?  I don't think it's too much to ask of each of the departments to state either what they are hoping to improve in the next X time frame or where they want community support (banker's wanting links is a good example).   Then once a plan is made and run by the "Congress" above a post can be made for some public feedback.   I'll pick on my punishment system I talked about above for a scenario.  

  1. As part of the Status Report say that we know it's an issue and we are looking at it and hope to create a standardized system that the punishments can fall into.   Similar to what I have above, but with a bit more detail.
  2. Figure the shit out.  Easier said than done.
  3. Run it by the Congress.   Everyone can weigh in and shoot holes in things and try to come to some consensus ahead of the larger public consumption
  4. Have the "owner" make a post and state the proposed changes and get public feedback.   There will definitely be some amount of dissent, but that's to be expected. Look for the main points and discuss more with the smaller group as necessary.
  5. Incorporate any changes as needed (or scrap it altogether if warranted) then post the "final" revision out with a date that it'll take effect.

New update requirements? Fits
Rule changes? Should work too
Review of pay across various jobs? Yup

This also buys HO some breathing room in the fact that if someone comes up with a new gripe it isn't expected to be looked at/solved immediately but would need to make it to the next round of changes (similar to a sprint for you Agile folks out there). This would end up setting realistic and manageable expectations for both parties. General population knows what's on HO's plate for a period of time and HO can focus on those without having to constantly field new requests with an expectation of an immediate resolution.



But then again - I'm the new guy here. What the fuck do I know?

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