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Is it time to talk about parity yet?
#76

04-14-2020, 09:55 PMRainDelay Wrote:
04-14-2020, 03:25 PMnotorioustig Wrote: April's Clown of the Month is the most hotly contested one in awhile

So many great contestants, I just don’t know who to choose!

Not even worth starting a ballot yet since a new contender crawls out of the woodwork every few hours

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#77

fuck that

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#78

Aren't we only in season 1 of FHM use

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#79

04-14-2020, 11:33 PMImShiny Wrote: Aren't we only in season 1 of FHM use

we've using FHM for the past ten seasons and just pretending it was sths.
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#80

04-15-2020, 12:05 AMefiug Wrote:
04-14-2020, 11:33 PMImShiny Wrote: Aren't we only in season 1 of FHM use

we've using FHM for the past ten seasons and just pretending it was sths.

ooooooh. Well in that case. Bring on a brand new sim engine

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#81

04-14-2020, 02:59 PMst4rface Wrote: STHS is much better than FHM.

Bro you actually said this unironically lmao

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#82

04-14-2020, 02:44 PMml002 Wrote:
04-14-2020, 02:10 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Parity isn’t an issue, just look at Toronto and Tampa Bay. They’re intentionally tanking with less than stellar rosters. If they actually tried to field competitive rosters, the higher end teams wouldn’t be feeding on them.

I mean its not like there are ever any free agents to sign. Player movement in this league is predicated on trades and rebuilding teams that trade for players are what I call, unsmart

I'd argue it's both kind of tradition and a bit systematic issue here - even if you get to be a free agent due to the timing of free agency most teams already have set roosters and no cap space to spare. Because of that barely any pitches are made to the players, hence they are rather likely to stay with their previous teams. Like I can say from my perspective - I was rather a prime FA this offseason yet only 3 teams made offers, and two others actually would have had weird vibe if I were to join them (e.g. joining a team that beat you in finals & another were S51 champs). I'm a career journeyman, both via later design and earlier events in my career, so teams really get a decent chance at signing me in that period. But I easily can see someone underwhelmed by the interest and just signing long-term with his next contract effectively removing him from future FAs.
Maybe with sim revolution it's time for another and speed up opening the free agency to at least a couple days before the draft?

And to not entirely go off-topic here I'm quite happy that you can see good teams being good for a reason and bad having a glaring hole. Once I have a moment I got a neat media idea to go about it since FHM really opens up some analysis options.


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#83

for me also its ok that bad teams having bad seasons. but after this move and all the randomness before ... its hard to argue with the own team.
I dont like the new way .... the commishes always should think and work for the league ... never personally or for the own team. best way had to be an phantasie draft before we started with the new sim. problem .... this would be unfair for all teams they worked hard on their rosters. so you have always advantages and disadvantages in a community with decisions. That is only my opinion but I am an asshole so no one is reading my words! that was different in the past as i was the real Asshole Number One of the SHL. the most members did hate me but still read my broken english and saw a bit between the lines. that always brought them to good ideas and on the perfect track for decisions. That changed and that isnt positive. in my opinion the members in charge should more think about the league and not about their own revenge moves or interests. Sorry to write that but I saw lately those actions and that shouldnt be a thing in the Commission of any section in the SHL. I had the chance to revenge as IIHF Commish but never did that. Why? because that is the wrong way. we have/had here some members they always try to argue that they are good members but behind the scenes they are snakes and already did that what i have here written to you ... the SHL Universe. This also happened before but never in those harsh snakey ways like today. that is also my opinion about the word ... corrupt ... in case of members in charge. and of course I cant talk in that case about all. but trust me there are some of those people and they are in charge. I know that the older members like RED, Wasty or Leafs ... are in the last time a bit quiet but here you can see how the league handle criticism from one of the members they are here since 2010-2012. I always see some disrespect and that isnt ok in my opinion. without the past we hadnt the present of SHL.

for me personally ... it sucks with the new index system. I see a huge problem with the boxcore problem in the future. I have the FHM game so I can see the boxcores ... but not all. Also here I can see not the way like the members in charge should do ... thinking of and for the league. I like the standings and stats what DrunkenTeddy did for SHL. but its not his mistake that the boxcores are crap without the FHM game.

so now I will go back in my deep black hole as I was coming from.

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#84

Have been thinking this bit lately but can't really say I feel like there is easy way out.

I think that biggest issue with all this isnt exactly how bad some teams currently are, but the reason for it and to what it can lead to. It is now more clear that most players bellow 800 will be pulling you down as a team and you need good player to make up for it. It will get bit better once people learn FHM better and if players are willing to build their player just like team needs not like they would like to.

Then again reaching that 800 (or what ever line we pick) doesn't make you good, just makes you able to survive in SHL and if you are some of top earners of your class it will only take you about 6 months to get there. For those top earners I feel like it will get more common for them to stay down for 4 seasons before they get to SHL roster, at least for better teams which should mean more people staying down longer. Yet for more casual player even 5 seasons might not be enough to hit 800 or just barely do so.

So more players stay down for longer or if they don't you might end up having teams like Toronto is this season which will require lot from GMs to keep everyone active, updating and not moving away in FA when all you can promise is that in 8 to 12 real life months things should be better. I feel that it will take longer to be back in playoffs cause you really can't luck your way in when you are getting closer, also dropping from 10 to 8 playoff teams doesn't help with it, but not much that can be done.

Needing to get higher average tpe for your roster also means in general higher salaries which could easily lead to most teams being lot closer to cap and having less room for prospects. To counter that you can raise cap, draft less people or sign them for shorter contracts and drop them if they don't start earning well during their second season. Last 2 are clearly bad options for more casual users if we want to keep them active.

I'm writing this at work and it for sure might not make sense but my main fear is that there won't be room for people on site who might peak around 1.2k tpe because transistion to SHL becomes too early for their career leaving them to retire after 5 seasons while they could be useful part of team if they stayed down for 7 seasons. Maybe allowing longer SMJHL careers for active players (and maybe shorter for IAs) could help with that but then you need to give teams some reason to keep signing them for that long.

One thing I would interested to see would be boosting players moving up, like making first team training camp after moving to SHL give you like 150 TPE extra, this would inflate tpe levels greatly, but you could still make top of update scale that even harder like 19->20 costing 60 instead of 40, still allowing you to most likely push at least one more attribute to that 20 if everyone gains 150 extra. Maybe pair this all with harsher regression so players would peak higher but get down faster.

In general this would allow players on 650 range to get into SHL with 800 tpe making jump to SHL more reasonable for casual users, allowing top earners to move up earlier opening spots on SMJHL rosters or if they stay longer they could come up with over 1k tpe and hopefully have positive impact on the team. Or it could just move bar by 150 higher making those 900 tpe players useless.

Well hopefully someone can follow that through and get something out of it.

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#85

Ok I just want to point out that normally the big parity control in leagues, as far as I understand it, tends to be the mechanism of cap. In NHL, if you want to have your elite level players, well they will want a massive paycheck, and that's where the situation gets completely unrealistic in SHL, because the cap hit doesn't scale with the quality and the play at all. I think if you cross 1K TPE, you have a minimum contract of 3 mil, a 1500+ player has a 5 mil right? Yet what difference in your team do those 2 million make is absolutely incomparable to the difference 2 million have on your cap hit. Players also very rarely leave the bottom floor of their contract in hopes GMs can gather more high TPE players and create a massively amazing teams TPE wise. If we raise the cap hits for high TPE players, let's say the same 1500 TPE player will cost you 7 mil at least, suddenly there is going to be a lot more teams unable to hold on to their players because of cap reasons, just like it is in NHL, and those players then end up available for way cheaper on the market for rebuilds/weaker teams to collect. Is it a shitty way to solve it for teams that scout better than others? Yes, but that's I think how every single solution to improve the parity of the league will go, unfortunately.

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#86

04-14-2020, 05:15 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
04-14-2020, 04:16 PMml002 Wrote: i mean i havent spent a ton of time with tactics but I'm finding some things that help against the weaker teams. The problem is nothing I do against teams better than us matters. We cannot get the puck out of our zone against the elite teams at all. Idk if its a matter of making the scale easier on the lower TPE players or hardening it at the top, but I do think to some degree players coming out of the J need to be able to make an impact which right now idk how many can.

I don't want to tell players you have to stay down four seasons just to be competitive at the SHL level, plus that will put a whole other stress on the SMJHL cause its a development league. When max earners have to stay down four seasons just to be not useless I think that shows a bigger problem to come.

Edit: To be clear, I don't want rebuilding teams in the playoffs. As a GM of one who did it more than once, it's beyond frustrating for me to make the playoffs with a roster that is designed not to be. Currently I think the scale is just not forgiving to rebuilding teams as when the motivation is you have to get to 1k TPE to be not awful is going to hurt the league long term keep members.

From what I can make out, partially based on the answers in here, the main problem might not be a lack of elite players, but that the game is really punishing any lack of depth. In the STHS era you could get by with a couple of 500 TPE-players sprinkled throughout your roster and occasionally having one on the 2nd or 3rd line/pairing wouldn't kill you, but apparently that has changed with FHM. Tampa Bay probably is the prime example for this when looking at their defense.

Now you could argue that some teams foresaw this change and adapted to it and others didn't, which could be fair. But I would argue that even if GMs saw that problem and try to fix it, they very likely can't because the supply isn't there. There simply aren't enough mid-to-high TPE defensemen available for every team to have 5-6 of them. You can't simply sign/trade for them or bring them in through the draft because the first two options are super costly given the supply-demand situation, and the latter takes years and is far from a guarantee. So as it stands now, FHM is cementing the existing imbalances because the teams who are on the back foot right now have little to no ways of catching up. And being on the back foot is way more punishing in the moment as it used to be.

Now there are ways to fix this I think without going after the strong teams with things like cap-changes or a new update scale. Just spitballing here but one option for example would be the implementation of filler players, AI players with say around 600-800 TPE and a decent build that every team would get a handful or per position and that don't count against the cap. They wouldn't take a space from an active player or give you an advantage over other teams, but would ensure that teams without a lot of actives don't get absolutely shelled while at the same time depth is only available at a premium. But as I said, just spitballing here, this is basically just an example of the new and creative options we could look at.
You're absolutely right on the depth point.

In assembling my projected build and helping out some others, I ended up looking through a lot of NHL builds. It is absolutely reasonable to compare a player who has stayed largely active in the J to the average rookie or AHL prospect (~600 - 850 TPE) in their first season, and it scales quite nicely to the elite level of the likes of Crosby and Stamkos (2100 - 2200 range).

The problem isn't the scale, it's that anything under, by my guess, 650 TPE is playing a low-end AHL player or an ECHL player in the NHL. They're being out-classed in every way. Sure you might get lucky, but luck runs out.

Roster parity is going to be problematic for the foreseeable future, and I agree that having roster fillers is probably the way to go. I can't think of a better answer that keeps the same number of teams, since the biggest part of that is player activity.

And then, on top of that, the GM game has changed. STHS's tactics were basically "RW shoot good, Center pass good, LW shoot good. This line shoot lots". Now we're looking at "How does a Power Forward mix with a Sniper and a Speedy Forward if we're playing Along the Boards? How does it change if I tell the Power Forward to just hit people?"

Personally speaking, this change has called into question what I thought I knew about hockey. I would be very surprised if I was alone. I think as we as a community get more savvy, there will be more tactical parity.

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#87

04-15-2020, 10:44 AMCapt_Blitzkrieg Wrote:
04-14-2020, 05:15 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: From what I can make out, partially based on the answers in here, the main problem might not be a lack of elite players, but that the game is really punishing any lack of depth. In the STHS era you could get by with a couple of 500 TPE-players sprinkled throughout your roster and occasionally having one on the 2nd or 3rd line/pairing wouldn't kill you, but apparently that has changed with FHM. Tampa Bay probably is the prime example for this when looking at their defense.

Now you could argue that some teams foresaw this change and adapted to it and others didn't, which could be fair. But I would argue that even if GMs saw that problem and try to fix it, they very likely can't because the supply isn't there. There simply aren't enough mid-to-high TPE defensemen available for every team to have 5-6 of them. You can't simply sign/trade for them or bring them in through the draft because the first two options are super costly given the supply-demand situation, and the latter takes years and is far from a guarantee. So as it stands now, FHM is cementing the existing imbalances because the teams who are on the back foot right now have little to no ways of catching up. And being on the back foot is way more punishing in the moment as it used to be.

Now there are ways to fix this I think without going after the strong teams with things like cap-changes or a new update scale. Just spitballing here but one option for example would be the implementation of filler players, AI players with say around 600-800 TPE and a decent build that every team would get a handful or per position and that don't count against the cap. They wouldn't take a space from an active player or give you an advantage over other teams, but would ensure that teams without a lot of actives don't get absolutely shelled while at the same time depth is only available at a premium. But as I said, just spitballing here, this is basically just an example of the new and creative options we could look at.
You're absolutely right on the depth point.

In assembling my projected build and helping out some others, I ended up looking through a lot of NHL builds. It is absolutely reasonable to compare a player who has stayed largely active in the J to the average rookie or AHL prospect (~600 - 850 TPE) in their first season, and it scales quite nicely to the elite level of the likes of Crosby and Stamkos (2100 - 2200 range).

The problem isn't the scale, it's that anything under, by my guess, 650 TPE is playing a low-end AHL player or an ECHL player in the NHL. They're being out-classed in every way. Sure you might get lucky, but luck runs out.

Roster parity is going to be problematic for the foreseeable future, and I agree that having roster fillers is probably the way to go. I can't think of a better answer that keeps the same number of teams, since the biggest part of that is player activity.

And then, on top of that, the GM game has changed. STHS's tactics were basically "RW shoot good, Center pass good, LW shoot good. This line shoot lots". Now we're looking at "How does a Power Forward mix with a Sniper and a Speedy Forward if we're playing Along the Boards? How does it change if I tell the Power Forward to just hit people?"

Personally speaking, this change has called into question what I thought I knew about hockey. I would be very surprised if I was alone. I think as we as a community get more savvy, there will be more tactical parity.

It's certainly gonne be interesting to see how much of that comes down to tactics and how much things will change as teams and GMs get more adapted to and experienced in the new engine. But it also feels like no amount of GM-skill will be able to make up for a lack of depth, and to acquire that depth if you don't already have it is almost impossible in the current SHL-ecosystem. Luckily there are a lot of possible directions from which to adress that issue, be it through filler players, the update scale or the salary cap. I like filler players because it would be the most surgical and least disruptive of the options because it is solely focused on the issue at hand, whereas lowering the cap or changing the update scale would come with a whole host of other side effects and would likely punish teams who do good work, which is indeed something we want to avoid.
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#88

@RomanesEuntDomus here's a thing to note. Half of the teams outside of the playoffs don't have their 1st round pick. I think that further reinforces that the issue isn't the sim but poor management. We should be getting parity through the draft but we aren't because these GMs traded their lottery pick.
This whole conversation also ignores the role that coaching plays in the sim. Maybe these GMs need to try new lines/tactics. They make a difference.

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#89

so the tldr i'm getting from all this is:
- Increase the impact of 700-100 TPE players in the SHL. (fix lower end of scale and make higher end of scale cost more per level up)

Which isn't a bad idea per se.

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#90

Also don't forget there will be a one time free rebuild for all players, with a season's worth of experience and a chance to see what types of builds are successful, it will give everyone a better idea of where to apply TPE for their projected player type

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