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Graphics Grading and where we go from here
#16

04-27-2020, 11:08 PMWeretarantula Wrote:
04-27-2020, 11:02 PMWasty Wrote: What I meant more isn’t to push people away from graphics, the money is there when they put more than just trying to make money. The work gets better when the motivation isn’t JUST money.

The more people quit it’s because they’re so dependent on thinking this is just for money and only produce graphics with just that motivation, which hurts their work, their development and their payout. Then they quit thinking there’s no money in graphics, but there is when you’re consistently making them and getting better NOT caring how much they’re doing to make but knowing they’re going to get paid atleast something.

When I started I wasn’t making 4/5s and 5/5s all the time but I continued to get better and consistently submitted graphics and made the bank I have now.

Just waiting for one week to do graphics? Of course there’s no money in graphics if you do it once a season. Consistent work gets consistent payouts.

And with that mentality wouldn't you want to nurture that enthusiasm and not drive it away with a super strong critique off the bat and barely any reward? Because you know that's exactly what is given, and it does absolutely nothing to help that person be interested in submitting anything ever again 95% of the time.
Ask ANYONE that has ever approached me for graphic help and see if any of them would say I didn’t help or nurture them to become better.

However you cannot help someone telling them their stuff is amazing and pay them a lot (when it isn’t amazing and not worth huge pay.) they will never push themselves to get better.

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#17

04-27-2020, 11:21 PMWasty Wrote:
04-27-2020, 11:08 PMWeretarantula Wrote: And with that mentality wouldn't you want to nurture that enthusiasm and not drive it away with a super strong critique off the bat and barely any reward? Because you know that's exactly what is given, and it does absolutely nothing to help that person be interested in submitting anything ever again 95% of the time.
Ask ANYONE that has ever approached me for graphic help and see if any of them would say I didn’t help or nurture them to become better.

However you cannot help someone telling them their stuff is amazing and pay them a lot (when it isn’t amazing and not worth huge pay.) they will never push themselves to get better.

Not once did I say you weren't a helpful advisor, nor that the critique isn't required to enhance people's learning. I'm saying the process itself is not encouraging. Critique is required, but at higher rates of pay there is at least a reason to continue. Not everyone loves their graphics to begin with. But they might come to. If they are compensated better for their efforts, they are more likely to try again.

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#18
(This post was last modified: 04-27-2020, 11:41 PM by JNH.)

Also have to disagree with limiting what the better sig makers make. If a great sig by a great sig maker makes the same as a worse one by a newer maker, where’s the incentive to make great sigs? Why would anyone put that much more time in?

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#19
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2020, 12:14 AM by SAwful.)

From what I'm reading, the way the system is described, it's attempting to get people to conform to the process model of creating several small pieces a week, do specific types of work for little initial reward, with the goal of working toward a skill set and style specialized to this site, just... Because?

I prefer working at a slower pace in my spare time to create something very detail oriented that might take me a week or two to complete and submit.
I try to get a bigger payout on one piece because it makes logical sense that I would be compensated better for doing 1 thing really well instead of 3-5 things very mediocre...
That's my motivation and my pace for keeping interested in the work. I like making graphics, and I've liked doing it for a long time.

Hypothetical Comparison:
I decide to take 1-2 hours out of my day each day for 10 days (2 work weeks), and slowly, meticulously work on a written piece for Media and produce 5,000-10,000 words.
My motivation to write is my own, but I also know that one of the reasons I'm embarking on the endeavor is that I'm largely influenced by the payout.
At the end of the day, I'm improving my bank to facilitate the training of my player, because this is a game.
This translates to a specific amount of predictable income which I can then plan on using accordingly.
Comparison Analysis:
Why is the graphics model not more balanced the way that writing is?

A. It's not for the graphics team to dictate what anyone's motivation is, the site has already created motivation in the form of currency.
B. It's not for the graphics team to decide what anyone's workload and time-frames are, those workloads and time-frames are dictated by people lives and their willingness to spend that time a specific manner.
C. It's not for the graphics team to decide what type of work anyone should be doing, if they're truly interested in graphics, they'll want to make graphics that they like or find appealing.

To remedy the issue I'd recommend adopting a pass fail type of system awarding a specific amount of money based upon community votes, with incentive levels depending on the level of approval.
Less than 49% of the community vote is positive? Here's a specified amount of money for you.
50-69% positive? Here's your specified payout for doing a good job and making an appealing piece.
70-79% 80-89% 90-100% positive? Here's your specified payout for doing a good job and making an appealing piece + a level bonus.

This could potentially remove graphics graders, because voting is done in the open by the community, en mass.

This isn't the only potential solution, it's just something that I feel like is more open and fair to the process to respect creators efforts.

EDIT: This isn't meant to be the only way things could be run, but just a suggestion to spur conversation and continue the talk about how grading could be different, or send a different message.

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#20

04-28-2020, 12:01 AMSAwful Wrote: From what I'm reading, the way the system is described, it's attempting to get people to conform to the process model of creating several small pieces a week, do specific types of work for little initial reward, with the goal of working toward a skill set and style specialized to this site, just... Because?

I prefer working at a slower pace in my spare time to create something very detail oriented that might take me a week or two to complete and submit.
I try to get a bigger payout on one piece because it makes logical sense that I would be compensated better for doing 1 thing really well instead of 3-5 things very mediocre...
That's my motivation and my pace for keeping interested in the work. I like making graphics, and I've liked doing it for a long time.

Hypothetical Comparison:
I decide to take 1-2 hours out of my day each day for 10 days (2 work weeks), and slowly, meticulously work on a written piece for Media and produce 5,000-10,000 words.
My motivation to write is my own, but I also know that one of the reasons I'm embarking on the endeavor is that I'm largely influenced by the payout.
At the end of the day, I'm improving my bank to facilitate the training of my player, because this is a game.
This translates to a specific amount of predictable income which I can then plan on using accordingly.
Comparison Analysis:
Why is the graphics model not more balanced the way that writing is?

A. It's not for the graphics team to dictate what anyone's motivation is, the site has already created motivation in the form of currency.
B. It's not for the graphics team to decide what anyone's workload and time-frames are, those workloads and time-frames are dictated by people lives and their willingness to spend that time a specific manner.
C. It's not for the graphics team to decide what type of work anyone should be doing, if they're truly interested in graphics, they'll want to make graphics that they like or find appealing.

To remedy the issue I'd recommend adopting a pass fail type of system awarding a specific amount of money based upon community votes, with incentive levels depending on the level of approval.
Less than 49% of the community vote is positive? Here's a specified amount of money for you.
50-69% positive? Here's your specified payout for doing a good job and making an appealing piece.
70-79% 80-89% 90-100% positive? Here's your specified payout for doing a good job and making an appealing piece + a level bonus.

This could potentially remove graphics graders, because voting is done in the open by the community, en mass.

This isn't the only potential solution, it's just something that I feel like is more open and fair to the process to respect creators efforts.

Not gonna lie, I think it needs to stick with the graders, although I can appreciate where you're coming from. 

I don't think graphics needs to be more of a popularity contest.

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#21

04-28-2020, 12:01 AMSAwful Wrote: From what I'm reading, the way the system is described, it's attempting to get people to conform to the process model of creating several small pieces a week, do specific types of work for little initial reward, with the goal of working toward a skill set and style specialized to this site, just... Because?

I prefer working at a slower pace in my spare time to create something very detail oriented that might take me a week or two to complete and submit.
I try to get a bigger payout on one piece because it makes logical sense that I would be compensated better for doing 1 thing really well instead of 3-5 things very mediocre...
That's my motivation and my pace for keeping interested in the work. I like making graphics, and I've liked doing it for a long time.

Hypothetical Comparison:
I decide to take 1-2 hours out of my day each day for 10 days (2 work weeks), and slowly, meticulously work on a written piece for Media and produce 5,000-10,000 words.
My motivation to write is my own, but I also know that one of the reasons I'm embarking on the endeavor is that I'm largely influenced by the payout.
At the end of the day, I'm improving my bank to facilitate the training of my player, because this is a game.
This translates to a specific amount of predictable income which I can then plan on using accordingly.
Comparison Analysis:
Why is the graphics model not more balanced the way that writing is?

A. It's not for the graphics team to dictate what anyone's motivation is, the site has already created motivation in the form of currency.
B. It's not for the graphics team to decide what anyone's workload and time-frames are, those workloads and time-frames are dictated by people lives and their willingness to spend that time a specific manner.
C. It's not for the graphics team to decide what type of work anyone should be doing, if they're truly interested in graphics, they'll want to make graphics that they like or find appealing.

To remedy the issue I'd recommend adopting a pass fail type of system awarding a specific amount of money based upon community votes, with incentive levels depending on the level of approval.
Less than 49% of the community vote is positive? Here's a specified amount of money for you.
50-69% positive? Here's your specified payout for doing a good job and making an appealing piece.
70-79% 80-89% 90-100% positive? Here's your specified payout for doing a good job and making an appealing piece + a level bonus.

This could potentially remove graphics graders, because voting is done in the open by the community, en mass.

This isn't the only potential solution, it's just something that I feel like is more open and fair to the process to respect creators efforts.

You say that graphics grading is an issue because people should make what *they* want but then follow that by saying the community should vote, so people will just continue to make what the community likes.

Also it’s an interesting option but optimistic to think that the community will vote consistently enough to make this feasible. There’s a reason why we have to pay graders to do their job, why would people do it voluntarily?

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#22

04-28-2020, 12:09 AMsve7en Wrote: Not gonna lie, I think it needs to stick with the graders, although I can appreciate where you're coming from. 

I don't think graphics needs to be more of a popularity contest.

04-28-2020, 12:11 AMJNH Wrote: You say that graphics grading is an issue because people should make what *they* want but then follow that by saying the community should vote, so people will just continue to make what the community likes.

Also it’s an interesting option but optimistic to think that the community will vote consistently enough to make this feasible.  There’s a reason why we have to pay graders to do their job, why would people do it voluntarily?


Okay, both valid points. Different approach, it stays with the graders. But there's more of them. Think 15-20.
I would want this group of people to have varied opinions on quality and taste, which is why I believed bringing the community in was a novel idea.

My problem with the number of graders really stems from a close knit group of grading individuals forming a shared group aesthetic and not recognizing different types of work.

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#23

04-27-2020, 11:02 PMWasty Wrote:
04-27-2020, 10:42 PMDollarAndADream Wrote: I definitely agree with that overall, but I don't think that directly applies here.

When people come to the SHL, they get told they have to earn money to maximize their TPE. Then they're told the 2 big options of earning money outside of contracts are doing media or graphics. Whether you love doing those or not, you're basically doing them for the money, at least to start. At least in the beginning, people are literally doing graphics/media for the money, especially if you're just starting out and have no idea about the league or what to write about/do graphics for.

Doing graphics for the love and fun of it does come with it down the road, but that's after some trial and error and knowing how to even use Photoshop/whatever properly.
Just waiting for one week to do graphics? Of course there’s no money in graphics if you do it once a season. Consistent work gets consistent payouts.

Yes, but like I said, the only reason I do it only during doubles is because of the lack of pay.

We could be making a max of 100k per graphic, and you could still say consistent work gets consistent payouts. Doesn't make it any better.

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#24

04-28-2020, 12:37 AMDollarAndADream Wrote:
04-27-2020, 11:02 PMWasty Wrote: Just waiting for one week to do graphics? Of course there’s no money in graphics if you do it once a season. Consistent work gets consistent payouts.

Yes, but like I said, the only reason I do it only during doubles is because of the lack of pay.

We could be making a max of 100k per graphic, and you could still say consistent work gets consistent payouts. Doesn't make it any better.
But you aren’t getting 100k per graphic right now, you can get more, So getting 3M per week is better than nothing for 4 weeks and you still can do double weeks and increase a lot your income from just graphics.

Doing nothing pays you less than doing even ONE graphic a week lol even one a week plus double week is much more than nothing but doubles week.

You can’t say you don’t make money in graphics if you just don’t try lol

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#25

04-28-2020, 12:54 AMWasty Wrote:
04-28-2020, 12:37 AMDollarAndADream Wrote: Yes, but like I said, the only reason I do it only during doubles is because of the lack of pay.

We could be making a max of 100k per graphic, and you could still say consistent work gets consistent payouts. Doesn't make it any better.
But you aren’t getting 100k per graphic right now, you can get more, So getting 3M per week is better  than nothing for 4 weeks and you still can do double weeks and increase a lot your income from just graphics.

Doing nothing pays you less than doing even ONE graphic a week lol even one a week plus double week is much more than nothing but doubles week.

You can’t say you don’t make money in graphics if you just don’t try lol

Or you can write 100 words in 2 minutes. Gee I wonder what people will bother doing.

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#26

04-28-2020, 12:21 AMSAwful Wrote:
04-28-2020, 12:09 AMsve7en Wrote: Not gonna lie, I think it needs to stick with the graders, although I can appreciate where you're coming from. 

I don't think graphics needs to be more of a popularity contest.

04-28-2020, 12:11 AMJNH Wrote: You say that graphics grading is an issue because people should make what *they* want but then follow that by saying the community should vote, so people will just continue to make what the community likes.

Also it’s an interesting option but optimistic to think that the community will vote consistently enough to make this feasible.  There’s a reason why we have to pay graders to do their job, why would people do it voluntarily?


Okay, both valid points. Different approach, it stays with the graders. But there's more of them. Think 15-20.
I would want this group of people to have varied opinions on quality and taste, which is why I believed bringing the community in was a novel idea.

My problem with the number of graders really stems from a close knit group of grading individuals forming a shared group aesthetic and not recognizing different types of work.

Having something like 15-20 graders voting pass or fail on a particular graphic could work well. On top of that, you could add something like an 'Extra Credit' selection. So the pay scales based on the % of pass fail, and then dependent on the amount of extra credit ticks a graphic has, there could be bonus pay on a separate scale.

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#27
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2020, 01:26 AM by Wasty.)

04-28-2020, 12:58 AMWeretarantula Wrote:
04-28-2020, 12:54 AMWasty Wrote: But you aren’t getting 100k per graphic right now, you can get more, So getting 3M per week is better  than nothing for 4 weeks and you still can do double weeks and increase a lot your income from just graphics.

Doing nothing pays you less than doing even ONE graphic a week lol even one a week plus double week is much more than nothing but doubles week.

You can’t say you don’t make money in graphics if you just don’t try lol

Or you can write 100 words in 2 minutes. Gee I wonder what people will bother doing.
If you want 100k a week you could, but even a 1/5 graphic gets 250k.
But doing nothing gets $0 per week so it's better to do 4 1/5 sigs for 1M a week than doing no sigs and getting $0 a week.
If you want to write? go write.

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#28

04-28-2020, 01:00 AMmdubz Wrote:
04-28-2020, 12:21 AMSAwful Wrote: Okay, both valid points. Different approach, it stays with the graders. But there's more of them. Think 15-20.
I would want this group of people to have varied opinions on quality and taste, which is why I believed bringing the community in was a novel idea.

My problem with the number of graders really stems from a close knit group of grading individuals forming a shared group aesthetic and not recognizing different types of work.

Having something like 15-20 graders voting pass or fail on a particular graphic could work well. On top of that, you could add something like an 'Extra Credit' selection. So the pay scales based on the % of pass fail, and then dependent on the amount of extra credit ticks a graphic has, there could be bonus pay on a separate scale.
How do you pass/fail a graphic? What does that even mean?

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#29

04-28-2020, 12:54 AMWasty Wrote:
04-28-2020, 12:37 AMDollarAndADream Wrote: Yes, but like I said, the only reason I do it only during doubles is because of the lack of pay.

We could be making a max of 100k per graphic, and you could still say consistent work gets consistent payouts. Doesn't make it any better.
But you aren’t getting 100k per graphic right now, you can get more, So getting 3M per week is better  than nothing for 4 weeks and you still can do double weeks and increase a lot your income from just graphics.

Doing nothing pays you less than doing even ONE graphic a week lol even one a week plus double week is much more than nothing but doubles week.

You can’t say you don’t make money in graphics if you just don’t try lol
The point I was trying to make is that the pay is too low for me to justify working on sigs consistently for the SHL unless it's a doubles week.

There are other factors as well, with me being in other leagues. I'm sure if I was only on the SHL that I would make sigs here more often and be a money whore, but that's not how it is. It's a balance between my life and the other sim leagues, and unfortunately VHL/SBA/EFL have taken priority on a weekly basis over SHL.....unless it's doubles.

There's also the fact that SHL/PBE etc give you less than those other leagues do.
100 words = 100k here.
So 500 words = 500k, which is only halfway to 5 TPE training.
Meanwhile, on VHL/SBA/EFL, 500 words = 6 TPE.

That being said, the TPE structuring and system is different for SHL/PBE/NSFL compared to SBA/VHL/EFL, so that factors into that. Especially now, considering the switch to FHM and the completely different attribute system.

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#30

04-28-2020, 02:42 AMDollarAndADream Wrote:
04-28-2020, 12:54 AMWasty Wrote: But you aren’t getting 100k per graphic right now, you can get more, So getting 3M per week is better  than nothing for 4 weeks and you still can do double weeks and increase a lot your income from just graphics.

Doing nothing pays you less than doing even ONE graphic a week lol even one a week plus double week is much more than nothing but doubles week.

You can’t say you don’t make money in graphics if you just don’t try lol
The point I was trying to make is that the pay is too low for me to justify working on sigs consistently for the SHL unless it's a doubles week.

There are other factors as well, with me being in other leagues. I'm sure if I was only on the SHL that I would make sigs here more often and be a money whore, but that's not how it is. It's a balance between my life and the other sim leagues, and unfortunately VHL/SBA/EFL have taken priority on a weekly basis over SHL.....unless it's doubles.

There's also the fact that SHL/PBE etc give you less than those other leagues do.
100 words = 100k here.
So 500 words = 500k, which is only halfway to 5 TPE training.
Meanwhile, on VHL/SBA/EFL, 500 words = 6 TPE.

That being said, the TPE structuring and system is different for SHL/PBE/NSFL compared to SBA/VHL/EFL, so that factors into that. Especially now, considering the switch to FHM and the completely different attribute system.

Yeah I don't feel like that's an accurate comparison that can be made at all.

PT's are what, 4 TPE for 150 words? Then you do a WFT, get another 1 TPE for 25 words of bullshit.

VHL/SBA/EFA, 500 words = 6 TPE
SHL, 175 words = 5 TPE

SHL so user friendly

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