04-28-2020, 01:00 AMmdubz Wrote: Having something like 15-20 graders voting pass or fail on a particular graphic could work well. On top of that, you could add something like an 'Extra Credit' selection. So the pay scales based on the % of pass fail, and then dependent on the amount of extra credit ticks a graphic has, there could be bonus pay on a separate scale.
How do you pass/fail a graphic? What does that even mean?
Idk, whoever brought it up earlier said "we need a pass/fail system" and then laid out a system based on approval %'s which is grading but on a % approval scale instead of an averaged scale out of 5. There's nothing pass/fail about graphics.
Could you imagine pass/fail graphics? A 2/5... pass. A 5/5... pass. 1M for each of you thanks for coming out.
04-28-2020, 02:42 AMDollarAndADream Wrote: The point I was trying to make is that the pay is too low for me to justify working on sigs consistently for the SHL unless it's a doubles week.
There are other factors as well, with me being in other leagues. I'm sure if I was only on the SHL that I would make sigs here more often and be a money whore, but that's not how it is. It's a balance between my life and the other sim leagues, and unfortunately VHL/SBA/EFL have taken priority on a weekly basis over SHL.....unless it's doubles.
There's also the fact that SHL/PBE etc give you less than those other leagues do.
100 words = 100k here.
So 500 words = 500k, which is only halfway to 5 TPE training.
Meanwhile, on VHL/SBA/EFL, 500 words = 6 TPE.
That being said, the TPE structuring and system is different for SHL/PBE/NSFL compared to SBA/VHL/EFL, so that factors into that. Especially now, considering the switch to FHM and the completely different attribute system.
Yeah I don't feel like that's an accurate comparison that can be made at all.
PT's are what, 4 TPE for 150 words? Then you do a WFT, get another 1 TPE for 25 words of bullshit.
VHL/SBA/EFA, 500 words = 6 TPE
SHL, 175 words = 5 TPE
SHL so user friendly
PT's are 3 TPE, but your point stands.
That's why I clarified at the end how the league structuring is different.
VHL has their other ways of TPE per week as well though, like a VHL.com, which is a mini 150 word thing for 2 TPE. But we're not here to really compare leagues, I just wanted to throw that out there for discussion's sake.
04-28-2020, 01:56 AMNeonLime Wrote: How do you pass/fail a graphic? What does that even mean?
Idk, whoever brought it up earlier said "we need a pass/fail system" and then laid out a system based on approval %'s which is grading but on a % approval scale instead of an averaged scale out of 5. There's nothing pass/fail about graphics.
Could you imagine pass/fail graphics? A 2/5... pass. A 5/5... pass. 1M for each of you thanks for coming out.
This is a fair point, although I suppose I imagine pass fail as more of a, I like this and think it looks good, works as a sig, cool you pass.
As for the second point, that's what the extra credit scale would be for.
But also, I haven't submitted any graphics of my own yet, and am working off of second hand knowledge between seeing how sigs have been graded and hearing people complain about the grading, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.
04-28-2020, 02:49 AMJNH Wrote: Idk, whoever brought it up earlier said "we need a pass/fail system" and then laid out a system based on approval %'s which is grading but on a % approval scale instead of an averaged scale out of 5. There's nothing pass/fail about graphics.
Could you imagine pass/fail graphics? A 2/5... pass. A 5/5... pass. 1M for each of you thanks for coming out.
This is a fair point, although I suppose I imagine pass fail as more of a, I like this and think it looks good, works as a sig, cool you pass.
As for the second point, that's what the extra credit scale would be for.
But also, I haven't submitted any graphics of my own yet, and am working off of second hand knowledge between seeing how sigs have been graded and hearing people complain about the grading, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.
that just sounds like the current system except we can deadass fail sigs we dont like lmao
04-28-2020, 04:15 AMmdubz Wrote: This is a fair point, although I suppose I imagine pass fail as more of a, I like this and think it looks good, works as a sig, cool you pass.
As for the second point, that's what the extra credit scale would be for.
But also, I haven't submitted any graphics of my own yet, and am working off of second hand knowledge between seeing how sigs have been graded and hearing people complain about the grading, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.
that just sounds like the current system except we can deadass fail sigs we dont like lmao
Also a fair point.
At this point I'm gonna concede my arguement and go post my shitty sigs.
04-28-2020, 12:58 AMWeretarantula Wrote: Or you can write 100 words in 2 minutes. Gee I wonder what people will bother doing.
If you want 100k a week you could, but even a 1/5 graphic gets 250k.
But doing nothing gets $0 per week so it's better to do 4 1/5 sigs for 1M a week than doing no sigs and getting $0 a week.
If you want to write? go write.
You are missing the point of the argument. The point is the level of effort required between the two mediums is far too different. The payout for making graphics as an amateur is not rewarding.
You say you can pump out 4 sigs a week for a million bucks at 1/5 grades each. Do you forget how long it takes an amateur to make their sigs? Unless it's a paint hack and slash job, most people will spend a minimum of 4 hours trying to make something look good from what I have seen and heard, because they don't understand how the program works, what tools they need to use, how to effectively apply lighting and shading etc etc. Then they are concerned that it won't earn them anything so they spend even longer on it trying to make it look better, and the scale of pay doesn't reflect that extra time put in. So telling me they should spend approximately 16 hours of their week to make 4 sigs to just to be able to afford their training in the SHL is a terrible argument, no one should have to work THAT hard to achieve that. This is meant to be a game.
"Just do more" is not the solution here, and it's frustrating to see you straight up ignore almost everything I said in my original post when I am trying to be diplomatic and constructive. You need to realise the influence you have when it comes to this conversation, and coming in here, blowing all that off and telling people the aforementioned does nothing to help.
04-28-2020, 10:29 AM(This post was last modified: 04-28-2020, 10:33 AM by Wasty.)
04-28-2020, 09:38 AMWeretarantula Wrote:
04-28-2020, 01:25 AMWasty Wrote: If you want 100k a week you could, but even a 1/5 graphic gets 250k.
But doing nothing gets $0 per week so it's better to do 4 1/5 sigs for 1M a week than doing no sigs and getting $0 a week.
If you want to write? go write.
You are missing the point of the argument. The point is the level of effort required between the two mediums is far too different. The payout for making graphics as an amateur is not rewarding.
You say you can pump out 4 sigs a week for a million bucks at 1/5 grades each. Do you forget how long it takes an amateur to make their sigs? Unless it's a paint hack and slash job, most people will spend a minimum of 4 hours trying to make something look good from what I have seen and heard, because they don't understand how the program works, what tools they need to use, how to effectively apply lighting and shading etc etc. Then they are concerned that it won't earn them anything so they spend even longer on it trying to make it look better, and the scale of pay doesn't reflect that extra time put in. So telling me they should spend approximately 16 hours of their week to make 4 sigs to just to be able to afford their training in the SHL is a terrible argument, no one should have to work THAT hard to achieve that. This is meant to be a game.
"Just do more" is not the solution here, and it's frustrating to see you straight up ignore almost everything I said in my original post when I am trying to be diplomatic and constructive. You need to realise the influence you have when it comes to this conversation, and coming in here, blowing all that off and telling people the aforementioned does nothing to help.
You know you explained exactly what I did So yes I know EXACTLY what it takes as a new person to do graphics, you think I was just born and popping out 5/5 sigs? You must not understand I didn’t even know photoshop for the first THREE YEARS is was in this league. I started in photoshop and sigs just like everyone else did so don’t act and list everything people need to learn because I did it too. I’ve gone through EVERYTHING a new person in graphics has gone through and through tougher periods where A.) nobody did graphics so nobody helped B.) when graphics grading WAS REALLY SHIT (ie: didn’t get graphics graded for Multiple MONTHS) and graders didn’t care about helping so the critique was nil if anything. And C.) graphics people that did comment were MUCH harsher and insulting when it came to criticism. People like Phil wouldn’t even get to second submissions cause attitudes were awful and so off putting.
Hell my two biggest graphics teachers were never in SHL because SHL was so shit graphic wise. What the Gfx depth is like now is fucking heaven compared to ANY other era of graphics in the SHL.
#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS / MINNESOTA MONARCHS
04-27-2020, 10:47 PMsve7en Wrote: Hard agree here as a recent first gen. I have fun doing the content that I do, in video, writing, graphics, and the show, but I wouldn't be doing most of it if it wasn't for the money involved in it, even at my current bank.
04-28-2020, 02:47 AMJNH Wrote: Yeah I don't feel like that's an accurate comparison that can be made at all.
PT's are what, 4 TPE for 150 words? Then you do a WFT, get another 1 TPE for 25 words of bullshit.
VHL/SBA/EFA, 500 words = 6 TPE
SHL, 175 words = 5 TPE
SHL so user friendly
PT's are 3 TPE, but your point stands.
That's why I clarified at the end how the league structuring is different.
VHL has their other ways of TPE per week as well though, like a VHL.com, which is a mini 150 word thing for 2 TPE. But we're not here to really compare leagues, I just wanted to throw that out there for discussion's sake.
dont want to rehash this but I think it is important to note the difference between work in the VHL vs SHL. Now im not in the VHL. So someone like Esso and you would have a better grasp on it.
But SHL is money based where as VHL is you skip the money and go straight for the TPE
Per Week the SHL has PT(150 words) =3 TPE. WFT(25 words) = 1 TPE. 3v3(form) = 1 TPE, Primetime(if you guess it completely right up to 2 TPE)
AC = 2 TPE
Then you use that Money Economy to get 5 TPE for training(or 3 or 1 depending on the scale), and then up to 28 TPE in equipment.
for VHL you said its 500 words = 6 TPE. I assume there is also an AC in a sense?
I know the peak for SHL is way higher than the VHL in terms of TPE gained, but from what I see, you can do minimal work and reach 1-1.4k pretty easily. I would love to hear your perspective on things.
04-28-2020, 09:38 AMWeretarantula Wrote: You are missing the point of the argument. The point is the level of effort required between the two mediums is far too different. The payout for making graphics as an amateur is not rewarding.
You say you can pump out 4 sigs a week for a million bucks at 1/5 grades each. Do you forget how long it takes an amateur to make their sigs? Unless it's a paint hack and slash job, most people will spend a minimum of 4 hours trying to make something look good from what I have seen and heard, because they don't understand how the program works, what tools they need to use, how to effectively apply lighting and shading etc etc. Then they are concerned that it won't earn them anything so they spend even longer on it trying to make it look better, and the scale of pay doesn't reflect that extra time put in. So telling me they should spend approximately 16 hours of their week to make 4 sigs to just to be able to afford their training in the SHL is a terrible argument, no one should have to work THAT hard to achieve that. This is meant to be a game.
"Just do more" is not the solution here, and it's frustrating to see you straight up ignore almost everything I said in my original post when I am trying to be diplomatic and constructive. You need to realise the influence you have when it comes to this conversation, and coming in here, blowing all that off and telling people the aforementioned does nothing to help.
You know you explained exactly what I did So yes I know EXACTLY what it takes as a new person to do graphics, you think I was just born and popping out 5/5 sigs? You must not understand I didn’t even know photoshop for the first THREE YEARS is was in this league. I started in photoshop and sigs just like everyone else did so don’t act and list everything people need to learn because I did it too. I’ve gone through EVERYTHING a new person in graphics has gone through and through tougher periods where A.) nobody did graphics so nobody helped B.) when graphics grading WAS REALLY SHIT (ie: didn’t get graphics graded for Multiple MONTHS) and graders didn’t care about helping so the critique was nil if anything. And C.) graphics people that did comment were MUCH harsher and insulting when it came to criticism. People like Phil wouldn’t even get to second submissions cause attitudes were awful and so off putting.
Hell my two biggest graphics teachers were never in SHL because SHL was so shit graphic wise. What the Gfx depth is like now is fucking heaven compared to ANY other era of graphics in the SHL.
So don't you want the environment to be more encouraging then? I said in the original post that the heads have done a great job improving, this is a discussion on how we can get to a level that makes everyone happy. Stop treating my replies like a personal vendetta, I have nothing against you. You just frustrated me with your unwillingness to discuss what was originally said. I am trying to evoke constructive conversation.
04-28-2020, 11:09 AM(This post was last modified: 04-28-2020, 11:10 AM by Wasty.)
04-28-2020, 10:58 AMWeretarantula Wrote:
04-28-2020, 10:29 AMWasty Wrote: You know you explained exactly what I did So yes I know EXACTLY what it takes as a new person to do graphics, you think I was just born and popping out 5/5 sigs? You must not understand I didn’t even know photoshop for the first THREE YEARS is was in this league. I started in photoshop and sigs just like everyone else did so don’t act and list everything people need to learn because I did it too. I’ve gone through EVERYTHING a new person in graphics has gone through and through tougher periods where A.) nobody did graphics so nobody helped B.) when graphics grading WAS REALLY SHIT (ie: didn’t get graphics graded for Multiple MONTHS) and graders didn’t care about helping so the critique was nil if anything. And C.) graphics people that did comment were MUCH harsher and insulting when it came to criticism. People like Phil wouldn’t even get to second submissions cause attitudes were awful and so off putting.
Hell my two biggest graphics teachers were never in SHL because SHL was so shit graphic wise. What the Gfx depth is like now is fucking heaven compared to ANY other era of graphics in the SHL.
So don't you want the environment to be more encouraging then? I said in the original post that the heads have done a great job improving, this is a discussion on how we can get to a level that makes everyone happy. Stop treating my replies like a personal vendetta, I have nothing against you. You just frustrated me with your unwillingness to discuss what was originally said. I am trying to evoke constructive conversation.
So don’t try explain how people get better at graphics like I don’t know. You went through entire regiment of how someone new can get better at graphics as if I was someone that had no idea.
The environment IS great in the graphics community. One pissy guy retiring cause grading was behind and you seem to think the graphics community is so toxic and uninviting to new members. You say you have no vendetta and as do I towards you, however you keep replying and “graphic-splain” what’s it’s like as new person in the BEST environment the SHL graphic community has ever been. I explained how it was and how this is amazing right now.
Want to have a constructive conversation? Don’t start by replying to me like I don’t know what I’m talking about.
#40 Niclas Wastlund - W - VANCOUVER WHALERS / MINNESOTA MONARCHS
04-28-2020, 03:12 AMDollarAndADream Wrote: PT's are 3 TPE, but your point stands.
That's why I clarified at the end how the league structuring is different.
VHL has their other ways of TPE per week as well though, like a VHL.com, which is a mini 150 word thing for 2 TPE. But we're not here to really compare leagues, I just wanted to throw that out there for discussion's sake.
dont want to rehash this but I think it is important to note the difference between work in the VHL vs SHL. Now im not in the VHL. So someone like Esso and you would have a better grasp on it.
But SHL is money based where as VHL is you skip the money and go straight for the TPE
Per Week the SHL has PT(150 words) =3 TPE. WFT(25 words) = 1 TPE. 3v3(form) = 1 TPE, Primetime(if you guess it completely right up to 2 TPE)
AC = 2 TPE
Then you use that Money Economy to get 5 TPE for training(or 3 or 1 depending on the scale), and then up to 28 TPE in equipment.
for VHL you said its 500 words = 6 TPE. I assume there is also an AC in a sense?
I know the peak for SHL is way higher than the VHL in terms of TPE gained, but from what I see, you can do minimal work and reach 1-1.4k pretty easily. I would love to hear your perspective on things.
that argument would be exactly correct. money doesn't really matter in the VHL, it's just a lot of writing which some love and others don't. i do the bare minimum of like 10 tpe a week and just had a 199 point season in the vhlm so it's not that hard to build a decent player
ty to @High Stick King @EvilAllBran and @Ragnar for the sigs
04-28-2020, 10:58 AMWeretarantula Wrote: So don't you want the environment to be more encouraging then? I said in the original post that the heads have done a great job improving, this is a discussion on how we can get to a level that makes everyone happy. Stop treating my replies like a personal vendetta, I have nothing against you. You just frustrated me with your unwillingness to discuss what was originally said. I am trying to evoke constructive conversation.
So don’t try explain how people get better at graphics like I don’t know. You went through entire regiment of how someone new can get better at graphics as if I was someone that had no idea.
The environment IS great in the graphics community. One pissy guy retiring cause grading was behind and you seem to think the graphics community is so toxic and uninviting to new members. You say you have no vendetta and as do I towards you, however you keep replying and “graphic-splain” what’s it’s like as new person in the BEST environment the SHL graphic community has ever been. I explained how it was and how this is amazing right now.
Want to have a constructive conversation? Don’t start by replying to me like I don’t know what I’m talking about.
I went through the entire regiment because you are in this thread telling people they can just output 4 sigs a week and their cash flow will be fine. You needed to be reminded that that is an unrealistic prospect for general users of the site to do. If that's what you did, you're the 1%. That system is flawed and should be fixed, plain and simple.
The one pissy guy retiring has absolutely nothing to do with this post. It is literally in one of the the opening lines that I called him out for having a tantrum. Did you even read the OP? This is about fostering a better environment for amateurs, because the current one is intimidating and unrewarding. I never said you have a vendetta against me. The environment is amazing from your perspective. As many 'amateurs' in the thread have voiced, it hasn't been for them, and you're ignoring that.
04-28-2020, 10:58 AMWeretarantula Wrote: So don't you want the environment to be more encouraging then? I said in the original post that the heads have done a great job improving, this is a discussion on how we can get to a level that makes everyone happy. Stop treating my replies like a personal vendetta, I have nothing against you. You just frustrated me with your unwillingness to discuss what was originally said. I am trying to evoke constructive conversation.
So don’t try explain how people get better at graphics like I don’t know. You went through entire regiment of how someone new can get better at graphics as if I was someone that had no idea.
The environment IS great in the graphics community. One pissy guy retiring cause grading was behind and you seem to think the graphics community is so toxic and uninviting to new members. You say you have no vendetta and as do I towards you, however you keep replying and “graphic-splain” what’s it’s like as new person in the BEST environment the SHL graphic community has ever been. I explained how it was and how this is amazing right now.
Want to have a constructive conversation? Don’t start by replying to me like I don’t know what I’m talking about.
u gotta cool off my mans
not really having a constructive conversation with your previous responses. i get that you care a shit ton about graphics on the site, but there are some problems with them, and i think the gfx team is working on them as i type this out. we all can't have a calm and reasonable conversation with you storming in here and slamming were for trying to explain it, although he may not be as experienced with gfx as you
ty to @High Stick King @EvilAllBran and @Ragnar for the sigs
I am not going to butt into the argument happening here but I do want to say that I think it's a little silly to imply that people who are making graphics primarily for the money don't also have an appreciation for "the joy of art" or whatever. Yes, I do it because I like it and it's a creative outlet for me. But I am choosing *this* creative outlet specifically because of the benefits it gives me to make my player better. I love creating things! But this isn't the only way for me to express myself creatively and I don't think it sullies the honor of art for me to say that I am choosing to spend my time on this outlet because it pays money that improves my enjoyment of the site in the form of my player being better. I also like to paint! and bake pretty things! and decorate cakes! but when I choose to spend my small amounts of free time on this one it's usually because my boy needs the cash. That doesn't mean I don't have fun doing it, but it for sure influences why I decide to do this and not some other artsy thing.
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