12-12-2020, 07:05 PMArkz Wrote: 2. Open and honest explanation to new players on the goalie experience
This is something we are already incorporating as part of the new player creation experience, but we could be doing a better job here. While its one thing to tell people to strongly consider creating a goalie, we need to be more proactive. If we see that a user comes in with a goalie create, we should reach out to them over PM and double check that this is their choice and to reiterate what the goalie experience is like so they go in with eyes wide open. I knew what to expect when I created a goalie (ignoring @SDCore telling me to create as literally anything else), but other non-recreates will not be as fortunate or as prepared. This is also something that we can reevaluate as the position switch option is implemented in the league, as hopefully the goalie numbers are stabilized and we no longer need to discourage goalie creates.
You do make some solid points overall. As the mentor head, I just want to share my thoughts on this point.
We are always open and honest about the topic. When people ask if it's a good idea to create as a goalie, we try to tell them what it means, that they'll spend a lot of time as a backup with minimal playtime. I don't think discouraging new members from creating goalies entirely is the way to go. It's a unique position with a special role on a team. That's something some members are looking for. And telling those people, they can't create their player as they want to, doesn't help much in keeping them around either. Also having no new goalies for a couple of seasons will lead to the opposite issue in a couple of seasons. The big goalie classes won't be around forever either.
Mathias Seger #15 | Player page | Update page Sigs by Donini, RainDelay, Fever and OrbitingDeath
12-14-2020, 08:19 AM(This post was last modified: 12-14-2020, 08:23 AM by RomanesEuntDomus.)
Good article and many of the solutions you proposed make sense. I wouldn't shrug the concerns about the position switch off too easily though, it is definitely something that creates a significant risk of being abused and we would need some well thought out guardrails to prevent that. And just like some other people in here, I don't like the immersion breaking aspect of it, we could see people jump from not even being a Skater to scoring 50 or 60 points within their first season if they swap sufficiently late and storytelling wise that just sucks. I would assume that it might be an issue for the goalies themselves as well by the way, sure a position switch might help them out of an unfortunate situation, but they might very well just end up feeling like a second class skater then, who missed out on lots of cool career experiences in that position (drafts, juniors...), who isn't able to contend with his peers in terms of career stats etc... For a player in such a situation, just retiring and starting over might almost be the better option compared to a position swap.
Another issue is the cut-off date we set here, the latest point to which we'd want to allow the switch. Basically the earlier we set the cut-off, the more of the problems mentioned above will be eliminated, but the more ineffective the measure is gonna be because the goalies will need time to evaluate their situation to determine if a swap is necessary or not. With a cut-off that is too early, we risk running too many goalies out of their position just because they get drafted to a team that already has a young goalie (even though a lot of things can change until that player hits the big leagues) or who had to start their career with one season as a back-up. You just don't have the full picture until you are a few seasons into your career.
None of these things are meant to say that we shouldn't have a position switch, I just wanted to get a bit more into the potential problems and how important it is to set this up properly.
Another measure that could help with the problem at hand, which has ben suggested before but wasn't part of your article, is the goalie update scale. As many people has pointed out already, goalie-performance/build/TPE-level just doesn't matter enough in the current situation. No matter how good they are, goalies are too team-dependent and have too little impact on the sim. Well one solution for that would be to aim for more differentitation between goalies by making higher TPE goalies more valuable through a different update scale. This of course requires some testing, but it should be possible to essentially make the scale harder to the point where it will actually be an asset for your team to have a 1500 TPE goalie again because goalies below a 1000 TPE won't be as good anymore, even if they are on great teams.
Also, I kinda reject the notion that goalies don't matter at all anymore, I think that statement is a bit hyperbolic. They don't matter as much as they should, but they still have an impact. If you look at last seasons goalie stats, the two goalies on non-starpower teams who outperformed the goalies on similarly skilled squads and actually lifted their teams were Knox Booth and Harry Carpet, who also happened to be the highest TPE-goalies in the league if I'm not mistaken. I mean, we just had a season where we saw the leagues second highest TPE goalie carry a bad team to the playoffs, winning himself a McBride in the process. Of course goalies on good teams have it much easier to put up good stats at this point, but I think with the data we have, it's pretty bold to say that goaltending doesn't matter anymore. While this is definitely a problem that needs to be tackled and deserves discussion, we shouldn't blow it out of proportion either. There are issues around the goalie position at the moment especially related to its impact in the sim, but let's not talk ourselves into a hole where we tell ourselves that the position is dead and pointless out of self-pity and resignation. Even with all its issues (which I hope the league is already aware of and already working on fixing), it's still a position that matters.
And especially the goalie logjam is something that I personally think people are a big short-sighted on. Of course we should keep an eye on it and be proactive, but there isn't a huge logjam yet. Having a certain oversupply of goalies in the pipeline at the moment isn't a problem per se, I would argue that it is something that's actually needed. Saying that we have 29 goalies in the SHL now + 10 in the SMJHL + 8 in the next two draft classes does not mean that we will have 29 + 10 + 8 = 47 goalies in a few seasons. People underestimate how much of a cycle there is in regards to peoples career progression, players are constantly cycled out of the big leagues through regression, retirement or inactivity. By the time these young goalies will hit the big leagues (and not all of them will still be active then), plenty of the SHLs current crop of goalies will be deep in regression or will have already retired. We tend to forget how much attrition there is along the way, which of course isn't great, but has always been a factor in this league no matter what position you play in.
As a matter of fact, players should have to work a bit to be impact performers in the sim, why should goalies be treated differently here and have it easier than Skaters? At sub-1000 TPE, most Skaters will not be contenders for a spot on the top-line yet, so why should goalies be gifted a starting spot at that same TPE-level? Goalies having to play a season or two as a back-up is not a problem (especially with the new back-up rules which should make it a better experience) until we get to a point where it is something that regularly happens to 1300+ TPE goalies, who are already out of their ELC and are still stuck despite earning well. And I would argue that we are nowhere near that point yet, as lots of teams are even still running starters below that TPE-mark. Also with the new back-up rules making it a viable position, we actually have 48-60 goalie spots in the league (depending on if you count SMJHL back-ups or not), which is plenty for the supply we have at the moment.
I would argue that the key problem here is not the numbers game and the perceived logjam, but the lack of impact goalies seem to have in the sim right now. Fixing the latter is the crucial task at hand right now and creating more demand for good goalies by making the position meaningful again will go a long way in helping with any potential logjams as well.
I see positive in the being able to swap position in other leagues, just needs to be done prior to the prospects draft. Our league is unique in the sense that we hold the draft after only one season in development. The dedication and loyalty runs deep in this league, so circumvention will happen if swaps are permitted following any draft. In my opinion, I'd be for position swaps if designations are decided prior to the SHL Draft. Meaning a player has an entire season to educate their player on future possibilities and then allow the play to designate their player for a second position. Draft value is then established and checks/balances are thus in place. Once a designation is used (meaning by X time (established by HO) the users decides to use their position swap), a player then cannot switch back.
I’m not sure I’m in favor of generic AI goalies. I know in the past I have been in the “goalie TPE doesn’t matter” camp but after this season and looking at all the past data I can see it’s only partly true. Low TPE goalies on high skilled teams, especially ones which possess the puck a lot tend to overperform, and high TPE goalies on low skill teams underperform. However, I do notice that these high TPE goalies perform better than they should, look at Kryyst this year, he’s booling despite being on a trash fire.
12-14-2020, 01:07 PMDuff101 Wrote: I’m not sure I’m in favor of generic AI goalies. I know in the past I have been in the “goalie TPE doesn’t matter” camp but after this season and looking at all the past data I can see it’s only partly true. Low TPE goalies on high skilled teams, especially ones which possess the puck a lot tend to overperform, and high TPE goalies on low skill teams underperform. However, I do notice that these high TPE goalies perform better than they should, look at Kryyst this year, he’s booling despite being on a trash fire.
Krysst is just the example of the limits of the sim. We have the number of goals per game set at a certain value but he's seeing a ridiculous amount of shots. Since the game doesn't calculate things like quality of shots (that we're able to see at least) he's going to save as many shots as it takes to make sure the league's goal average isn't getting out of hand. It's why you'll see him stop 52/55 shots but you'll see someone like Peter Larson for MAN lose 3-1 after conceding 3 goals on 15 shots
Credit to Copenhagen, Wasty, FlappyGiraffe, InciteHysteria, and caltroit_red_flames
Make every team have a generic goalie and have no user be goalie until the position actually matters in the sim. Then open up 4th lines or add 2 more teams to the mix for these extra skaters now available.
I've long supported the idea of eliminating the option of playing goal, but tbh I might not have joined the league in the first place if I couldn't have been a goalie.
12-14-2020, 01:07 PMDuff101 Wrote: I’m not sure I’m in favor of generic AI goalies. I know in the past I have been in the “goalie TPE doesn’t matter” camp but after this season and looking at all the past data I can see it’s only partly true. Low TPE goalies on high skilled teams, especially ones which possess the puck a lot tend to overperform, and high TPE goalies on low skill teams underperform. However, I do notice that these high TPE goalies perform better than they should, look at Kryyst this year, he’s booling despite being on a trash fire.
Krysst is just the example of the limits of the sim. We have the number of goals per game set at a certain value but he's seeing a ridiculous amount of shots. Since the game doesn't calculate things like quality of shots (that we're able to see at least) he's going to save as many shots as it takes to make sure the league's goal average isn't getting out of hand. It's why you'll see him stop 52/55 shots but you'll see someone like Peter Larson for MAN lose 3-1 after conceding 3 goals on 15 shots
Is that maximum goal value thing new? And why do we still see 10-1 games?
I really don't want to be the one to pick the McBride winner this season...
12-14-2020, 01:26 PMml002 Wrote: Krysst is just the example of the limits of the sim. We have the number of goals per game set at a certain value but he's seeing a ridiculous amount of shots. Since the game doesn't calculate things like quality of shots (that we're able to see at least) he's going to save as many shots as it takes to make sure the league's goal average isn't getting out of hand. It's why you'll see him stop 52/55 shots but you'll see someone like Peter Larson for MAN lose 3-1 after conceding 3 goals on 15 shots
Is that maximum goal value thing new? And why do we still see 10-1 games?
I really don't want to be the one to pick the McBride winner this season...
Its an average goals per game, I think we had it in STHS as well, not 100% sure
12-14-2020, 01:26 PMml002 Wrote: Krysst is just the example of the limits of the sim. We have the number of goals per game set at a certain value but he's seeing a ridiculous amount of shots. Since the game doesn't calculate things like quality of shots (that we're able to see at least) he's going to save as many shots as it takes to make sure the league's goal average isn't getting out of hand. It's why you'll see him stop 52/55 shots but you'll see someone like Peter Larson for MAN lose 3-1 after conceding 3 goals on 15 shots
Is that maximum goal value thing new? And why do we still see 10-1 games?
I really don't want to be the one to pick the McBride winner this season...
It's an average not a maximum
Credit to Copenhagen, Wasty, FlappyGiraffe, InciteHysteria, and caltroit_red_flames
12-12-2020, 07:05 PMArkz Wrote: 2. Open and honest explanation to new players on the goalie experience
This is something we are already incorporating as part of the new player creation experience, but we could be doing a better job here. While its one thing to tell people to strongly consider creating a goalie, we need to be more proactive. If we see that a user comes in with a goalie create, we should reach out to them over PM and double check that this is their choice and to reiterate what the goalie experience is like so they go in with eyes wide open. I knew what to expect when I created a goalie (ignoring @SDCore telling me to create as literally anything else), but other non-recreates will not be as fortunate or as prepared. This is also something that we can reevaluate as the position switch option is implemented in the league, as hopefully the goalie numbers are stabilized and we no longer need to discourage goalie creates.
You do make some solid points overall. As the mentor head, I just want to share my thoughts on this point.
We are always open and honest about the topic. When people ask if it's a good idea to create as a goalie, we try to tell them what it means, that they'll spend a lot of time as a backup with minimal playtime. I don't think discouraging new members from creating goalies entirely is the way to go. It's a unique position with a special role on a team. That's something some members are looking for. And telling those people, they can't create their player as they want to, doesn't help much in keeping them around either. Also having no new goalies for a couple of seasons will lead to the opposite issue in a couple of seasons. The big goalie classes won't be around forever either.
Hey Segi, I do agree and I think we do a decent job at this overall. We could maybe be doing a little more, but I think the fact is that we're going to get a good amount of goalie creates every offseason just by nature of the position. In the ISFL it happens with QB's and RB's and in PBE I hear it happens with starting pitching as well. Roles with high visibility but low openings. The point is that we need to attack this from both ends if we can in the short term and then hopefully the mentors won't have to go the extra mile when a goalie create shows up.
Regarding the idea of bot goalies, I think that is the ultimate nuclear option and would be a mess to both implement and come back from in the future.
I think we're also conflating two different issues when we bring up the idea of bot goalies. That of a congested goalie pipeline and the idea that goalies are not as impactful as they should be. They are entirely team dependent, minus a few outliers that are testing the boundaries of the sim. I love me some Cale Amundsen, but he's outperforming goalies with 2x his TPE. In the SMJHL its even more all over the place with the TPE cap for goalies meaning that they don't even have the ability to outperform by sheer TPE advantage alone.
But I suppose that's why its at least worth it bringing up this point, because its an extra source of frustration for goalies. Either its hard for them to find playing time, and if they do they feel like they have no material impact on the game. They are the canary in the coal mine, just a signal on how the rest of the team is playing.
12-14-2020, 01:07 PMDuff101 Wrote: I’m not sure I’m in favor of generic AI goalies. I know in the past I have been in the “goalie TPE doesn’t matter” camp but after this season and looking at all the past data I can see it’s only partly true. Low TPE goalies on high skilled teams, especially ones which possess the puck a lot tend to overperform, and high TPE goalies on low skill teams underperform. However, I do notice that these high TPE goalies perform better than they should, look at Kryyst this year, he’s booling despite being on a trash fire.
12-14-2020, 01:07 PMDuff101 Wrote: I’m not sure I’m in favor of generic AI goalies. I know in the past I have been in the “goalie TPE doesn’t matter” camp but after this season and looking at all the past data I can see it’s only partly true. Low TPE goalies on high skilled teams, especially ones which possess the puck a lot tend to overperform, and high TPE goalies on low skill teams underperform. However, I do notice that these high TPE goalies perform better than they should, look at Kryyst this year, he’s booling despite being on a trash fire.
How is kryyst high tpe? He's at like 900 now
Really? I stand corrected.
At this point honestly maybe it’s totally random and a good goalie is just dumb lukc.
It's not dumb luck to be a good goalie, build matters and like most SIM leagues it's that some of the attributes involved don't matter compared to others. I saw a noticeable difference when I invested more in positioning for example. So long as TPE is placed into the right slots, you'll have moderate to high success.
Also, the goalie logjam will exist forever. It's not a position that has enough spots and it's coveted by too many hockey fans (which is why we choose it). I do think that the position switch is a valid solution for those who are not enjoying the experience after their first few seasons, and I also think that goalie creations should be limited or flagged. No matter what you're always going to have people who want to be goalies and what makes it hard is the competition. However, the competition will always be there, it's the nature of the position. That is a problem that will never be solved because it is the problem of the position. One other solution would be to increase regression for that position compared to others, because in real life goalies on average do not have extended careers like forwards and defense. Only the elite of the elite last long (Luongo comes to mind), but they are rare. Most goalies flame out quickly. This would allow for more of a cycle of goalies coming in and out of the game.
12-15-2020, 12:26 PMTate Wrote: It's not dumb luck to be a good goalie, build matters and like most SIM leagues it's that some of the attributes involved don't matter compared to others. I saw a noticeable difference when I invested more in positioning for example. So long as TPE is placed into the right slots, you'll have moderate to high success.
I would say maybe. The team in front of you, particularly the defense, still matters more. I haven't seen much of a difference, but perhaps that was because we switched to FHM when I already had most of what I think are important attributes already relatively high (around 17/18 I believe) and we all know the shitty season Toronto had. Perhaps it matters more when you're still on the lower TPE levels, I have no experience there. How do you define success? The only stat I really look at is sv%, because I believe that you cannot influence wins and GAA by upgrading your player attributes.
Segi
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