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High Stick King · 09-09-2022, 09:52 PM

09-09-2022, 08:41 PMjumpSeat Wrote:
09-09-2022, 07:56 PMGrapehead Wrote: I'm just saying there are tons of people with perfectly valid reasons to celebrate her death. Personally I'm not one of those people, but I recognize the evil that this monarchy in particular represents to several regions of the world.

Okay, that's fair. I think we can find middle ground on this. I'm glad to hear you're not one of those people who celebrate her death, and yes you're absolutely correct that what she represented is viewed very differently in other cultures. Personally, I don't believe in monarchy, so I'm not trying to say monarchy is good.

I guess what I'm saying is that while it's true the British Monarchy has a very tainted past, particularly with the way it treated certain indigenous peoples, (even to the point of destroying their language and culture - some would even charge genocide), I don't think you can lay all of that at her feet personally. Much of the oppression occurred prior to her reign. Plus I'm not familiar with any documented cases where she personally traveled overseas and committed acts of oppression.

Does that absolve her completely? No. As this may well be a case of guilt by association in the sense that she continued to uphold an institution that had a terrible track record of oppression in the past.

And I just want to point out that my own heritage is from a group of people who suffered greatly under British occupation and rule. Not as great as some mind you, but enough that much of our language and culture was lost. So I am somewhat familiar with that which I speak of.

(Not that it's particularly relevant, but I have studied my own family history and was surprised to learn my ancestors were once great landowners and akin to princes in the old country, until the British 'stole' the land and gave the title to those more sympathetic to the crown).

The point being, I don't hold any personal malice toward Elizabeth for our loss of station, and even though our family has been in decline ever since, I can't find it in me to hate her personally for something that happened hundreds of years before she was born. I'm not saying that makes me right or wrong. It's just the way I see it. Just like bad people, bad institutions can occasionally reform and I have a hard time condemning anyone for the way they used to be.

"Oh, you were a drunk and an alcoholic? Well you'll never be any good. You're worthless!" Sorry, but it's just not me.

Not to put my nose in the middle of this... however. You've completely skipped over her enabling her pedophilia child(ren) and protecting them from helping victims of rape from closure or any kind of justice.

There is a lot to not like about the royal family, not just things that happened 50 years ago.

Grapehead · 09-09-2022, 10:20 PM

09-09-2022, 08:41 PMjumpSeat Wrote:
09-09-2022, 07:56 PMGrapehead Wrote: I'm just saying there are tons of people with perfectly valid reasons to celebrate her death. Personally I'm not one of those people, but I recognize the evil that this monarchy in particular represents to several regions of the world.

Okay, that's fair. I think we can find middle ground on this. I'm glad to hear you're not one of those people who celebrate her death, and yes you're absolutely correct that what she represented is viewed very differently in other cultures. Personally, I don't believe in monarchy, so I'm not trying to say monarchy is good.

I guess what I'm saying is that while it's true the British Monarchy has a very tainted past, particularly with the way it treated certain indigenous peoples, (even to the point of destroying their language and culture - some would even charge genocide), I don't think you can lay all of that at her feet personally. Much of the oppression occurred prior to her reign. Plus I'm not familiar with any documented cases where she personally traveled overseas and committed acts of oppression.

Does that absolve her completely? No. As this may well be a case of guilt by association in the sense that she continued to uphold an institution that had a terrible track record of oppression in the past.

And I just want to point out that my own heritage is from a group of people who suffered greatly under British occupation and rule. Not as great as some mind you, but enough that much of our language and culture was lost. So I am somewhat familiar with that which I speak of.

(Not that it's particularly relevant, but I have studied my own family history and was surprised to learn my ancestors were once great landowners and akin to princes in the old country, until the British 'stole' the land and gave the title to those more sympathetic to the crown).

The point being, I don't hold any personal malice toward Elizabeth for our loss of station, and even though our family has been in decline ever since, I can't find it in me to hate her personally for something that happened hundreds of years before she was born. I'm not saying that makes me right or wrong. It's just the way I see it. Just like bad people, bad institutions can occasionally reform and I have a hard time condemning anyone for the way they used to be.

"Oh, you were a drunk and an alcoholic? Well you'll never be any good. You're worthless!" Sorry, but it's just not me.

Nobody's saying that you have to hate her or hold her personally responsible. Your mourning of her is just as valid as someone celebrating her death. It just appeared to me that you were trying to silence any condemnation of her just because she died and we ought to respect her simply for dying.

jumpSeat · 09-09-2022, 10:31 PM

09-09-2022, 09:52 PMHigh Stick King Wrote: Not to put my nose in the middle of this... however. You've completely skipped over her enabling her pedophilia child(ren) and protecting them from helping victims of rape from closure or any kind of justice.

Sorry, I didn't realize it was my job to list every conceivable infraction. Tongue

But newsflash, powerful people using their influence to cover up crimes and misdeeds of their children! This has being going on since the dawn of time in every hick town that's ever existed, and will continue long after we're all dust. Not just in the Royal Family. So yeah, they're guilty of being powerful people and doing what powerful people always do. Doesn't make it right. Just reality. And I don't see the point in getting mad at reality. Especially since reality couldn't care less about my emotional state.

jumpSeat · 09-09-2022, 10:34 PM

09-09-2022, 10:20 PMGrapehead Wrote: Nobody's saying that you have to hate her or hold her personally responsible. Your mourning of her is just as valid as someone celebrating her death. It just appeared to me that you were trying to silence any condemnation of her just because she died and we ought to respect her simply for dying.

Maybe it appeared that way, but that's not what I was trying to say. Smile

High Stick King · 09-09-2022, 10:35 PM

09-09-2022, 10:31 PMjumpSeat Wrote:
09-09-2022, 09:52 PMHigh Stick King Wrote: Not to put my nose in the middle of this... however. You've completely skipped over her enabling her pedophilia child(ren) and protecting them from helping victims of rape from closure or any kind of justice.

Sorry, I didn't realize it was my job to list every conceivable infraction.

But newsflash, powerful people using their influence to cover up crimes and misdeeds of their children! This has being going on since the dawn of time in every hick town that's ever existed, and will continue long after we're all dust. Not just in the Royal Family. So yeah, they're guilty of being powerful people and doing what powerful people always do. Doesn't make it right. Just reality. And I don't see the point in getting mad at reality. Especially since reality couldn't care less about my emotional state.

JFC.

I'll exit this convo.

Ragnar · 09-09-2022, 10:57 PM

09-09-2022, 10:31 PMjumpSeat Wrote:
09-09-2022, 09:52 PMHigh Stick King Wrote: Not to put my nose in the middle of this... however. You've completely skipped over her enabling her pedophilia child(ren) and protecting them from helping victims of rape from closure or any kind of justice.

Sorry, I didn't realize it was my job to list every conceivable infraction.

But newsflash, powerful people using their influence to cover up crimes and misdeeds of their children! This has being going on since the dawn of time in every hick town that's ever existed, and will continue long after we're all dust. Not just in the Royal Family. So yeah, they're guilty of being powerful people and doing what powerful people always do. Doesn't make it right. Just reality. And I don't see the point in getting mad at reality. Especially since reality couldn't care less about my emotional state.

What a shitty mentality to have.

“Pedophiles gonna pedophile. And their enablers are gonna enable them. No use getting upset about it.”

Yeah, it happens all the time everywhere, and yeah, that shit makes me mad. Every instance of a child being deprived of their innocence by an adult makes me mad.

Sigs by Me, Merica, High Stick King, Rum_Ham, Jess, vulfzilla, enigmatic, and Carpy

❤!! RIP to the big homies 701 and Mac !!❤

***bluesfan55*** · 09-09-2022, 11:07 PM

if you make hsk mad you make me mad this cannot stand

jumpSeat · 09-09-2022, 11:07 PM

09-09-2022, 10:57 PMRagnar Wrote: Yeah, it happens all the time everywhere, and yeah, that shit makes me mad. Every instance of a child being deprived of their innocence by an adult makes me mad.

Of course. My reference was to the misuse of power, not to psychologically damaging kids for the rest of their lives. Anyone with a shred of human compassion is revolted by that. In my line of work I deal with many offenders and it's part of my job to try and look beyond what they've done for the sake of potential rehabilitation. If that's classified as a shi**y mentality so be it, but there's no other way to reach out and help people.

jumpSeat · 09-09-2022, 11:10 PM

09-09-2022, 11:07 PMbluesfan55 Wrote: if you make hsk mad you make me mad this cannot stand

Okay, well I think we're getting way off topic here and it's not my intent to upset anyone. So please all enjoy your day, and I've got other things to do! Smile

***boom*** · 09-09-2022, 11:35 PM

For what it’s worth, I live in a country/region that has seen a lot of harm done to Indigenous peoples during colonization and to this day, and they’re dealing with a lot of intergenerational trauma that the country is still just beginning to dig itself out of (or deeper, depending on who you ask). The residential schools and the Sixties Scoop, among others, happened during QE2’s reign. It’s not some distant issue that’s over and done with, the people who have suffered harm at the hands of the Crown would justifiably feel upset at the mourning/attention given to this vs other events involving Indigenous tragedies (James Smith Cree Nation, for example).

Grapehead · 09-09-2022, 11:51 PM

09-09-2022, 10:34 PMjumpSeat Wrote:
09-09-2022, 10:20 PMGrapehead Wrote: Nobody's saying that you have to hate her or hold her personally responsible. Your mourning of her is just as valid as someone celebrating her death. It just appeared to me that you were trying to silence any condemnation of her just because she died and we ought to respect her simply for dying.

Maybe it appeared that way, but that's not what I was trying to say.

09-08-2022, 04:08 PMjumpSeat Wrote: Irregardless of anyone's views on modern monarchies or politics or what have you, let's not forget a life has ended here, and I do think that should take precedence over all the peripheral stuff. I mean, I'm no great fan of 'royal families' either, but I do know they still mean something to a lot of older folks in particular, so I try to acknowledge that reality and respect their feelings. Any debate about whether this might be a good time to abolish the monarchy should be saved for another day. Today is a day to remember and be grateful for a life that included spreading a lot of good will (especially to children) throughout the world.

So what were you trying to say?

Mazatt · 09-10-2022, 01:54 AM

09-08-2022, 02:11 PMadamantium Wrote:
09-08-2022, 02:09 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: As the official and only federation head of great britain I am obliged to hold my tongue about this

i need the ireland fed head to weigh in on this

Don't need the fed heads to weigh in on this one

Mutedfaith · 09-10-2022, 05:07 PM

09-09-2022, 08:41 PMjumpSeat Wrote:
09-09-2022, 07:56 PMGrapehead Wrote: I'm just saying there are tons of people with perfectly valid reasons to celebrate her death. Personally I'm not one of those people, but I recognize the evil that this monarchy in particular represents to several regions of the world.

Okay, that's fair. I think we can find middle ground on this. I'm glad to hear you're not one of those people who celebrate her death, and yes you're absolutely correct that what she represented is viewed very differently in other cultures. Personally, I don't believe in monarchy, so I'm not trying to say monarchy is good.

I guess what I'm saying is that while it's true the British Monarchy has a very tainted past, particularly with the way it treated certain indigenous peoples, (even to the point of destroying their language and culture - some would even charge genocide), I don't think you can lay all of that at her feet personally. Much of the oppression occurred prior to her reign. Plus I'm not familiar with any documented cases where she personally traveled overseas and committed acts of oppression.

Does that absolve her completely? No. As this may well be a case of guilt by association in the sense that she continued to uphold an institution that had a terrible track record of oppression in the past.

And I just want to point out that my own heritage is from a group of people who suffered greatly under British occupation and rule. Not as great as some mind you, but enough that much of our language and culture was lost. So I am somewhat familiar with that which I speak of.

(Not that it's particularly relevant, but I have studied my own family history and was surprised to learn my ancestors were once great landowners and akin to princes in the old country, until the British 'stole' the land and gave the title to those more sympathetic to the crown).

The point being, I don't hold any personal malice toward Elizabeth for our loss of station, and even though our family has been in decline ever since, I can't find it in me to hate her personally for something that happened hundreds of years before she was born. I'm not saying that makes me right or wrong. It's just the way I see it. Just like bad people, bad institutions can occasionally reform and I have a hard time condemning anyone for the way they used to be.

"Oh, you were a drunk and an alcoholic? Well you'll never be any good. You're worthless!" Sorry, but it's just not me.