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Fluw · 03-08-2023, 07:59 PM

If these players were smart they would have used their money to get their family out of Russia, country has a bleak future. And I doubt it's just fear unfortunately Eastern Europe is extremely conservative and anti-gay in general, I am almost willing to bet a lot of them support those views as it is what has been pushed for generations. Is it all? Probably not. Is it a majority, most likely. Speaking as an Eastern European by heritage myself, it's just commonplace unfortunately.

spooked · 03-08-2023, 08:14 PM

03-08-2023, 07:59 PMFluw Wrote: If these players were smart they would have used their money to get their family out of Russia, country has a bleak future. And I doubt it's just fear unfortunately Eastern Europe is extremely conservative and anti-gay in general, I am almost willing to bet a lot of them support those views as it is what has been pushed for generations. Is it all? Probably not. Is it a majority, most likely. Speaking as an Eastern European by heritage myself, it's just commonplace unfortunately.

Oh 100%. It could be one of many things, I think players in Russia will probably have it being illegal now literally as of a few months ago on the back of their minds, but it's also a very easy out for them if they do hold those views themselves, and the problem is I don't think anyone has a way to tell the difference outside of the teams really without a direct quote or something. Hopefully we get a real journalist story soon, though that is pretty rare in sports circles. Just kind of shitty we still have to deal with this kind of crap on so many things, especially from people it has no personal impact on too most of the time.

***luke*** · 03-08-2023, 09:58 PM

03-08-2023, 07:59 PMFluw Wrote: If these players were smart they would have used their money to get their family out of Russia, country has a bleak future. And I doubt it's just fear unfortunately Eastern Europe is extremely conservative and anti-gay in general, I am almost willing to bet a lot of them support those views as it is what has been pushed for generations. Is it all? Probably not. Is it a majority, most likely. Speaking as an Eastern European by heritage myself, it's just commonplace unfortunately.

As yes, move your family out of a place they lived in their whole lives. Easy as that

Rotti · 03-08-2023, 11:06 PM

03-08-2023, 07:59 PMFluw Wrote: If these players were smart they would have used their money to get their family out of Russia, country has a bleak future. And I doubt it's just fear unfortunately Eastern Europe is extremely conservative and anti-gay in general, I am almost willing to bet a lot of them support those views as it is what has been pushed for generations. Is it all? Probably not. Is it a majority, most likely. Speaking as an Eastern European by heritage myself, it's just commonplace unfortunately.

You cant just leave russia man

Waters · 03-08-2023, 11:11 PM

If North Koreans were smart they would just shoot kim jong un in the head

Fluw · 03-08-2023, 11:35 PM

The point is we aren't here to devolve this into arguing over Russia, or the war situation at this point. My two points I will make, close to a million people have already fled Russia to avoid the conditions being imposed upon them, so I am sure a millionaire would have been able to pull their family if they so chose to at the start of this all, never said it was easy

Second, if it means a better life then yes it is possible, I know that given personal family experience and oppression under the Soviet Union so I am speaking from a place of having family members, even members of my family murdered for opposing said ideology and we were dirt poor farmers.

So yeah I admit, these situations hit closer to home than I would like, and affects me, so feel free to pick apart what I said.

But how about we get back to the actual topic at hand which was LGBT rights, rather than devolve this into nitpicking specifically what I said, and discussing the Russian war of aggression.

EDIT:

I am not really that great with conveying my thoughts in a concise manner. The main point I was initially trying to make was most don't really fear what the laws have become in Russia. Unfortunately, Eastern Europe is extremely conservative, and is very much anti-LGBTQ and womens rights. In Poland as an example, which has been westernizing since breaking free of the Soviet Union in the 90s has the younger generation being quite progressive while the older generation and government have created anti-LGBTQ spaces. In Russia it's worse, and a lot of them agree with the ideology at it has been something that has been pushed for generations with no end in sight. People just go with the status quo, and don't do anything about it.

Now it's not all of them of course, but it's a commonplace thing unfortunately and will take time to change, hopefully.

***aleks*** · 03-09-2023, 12:58 AM

03-08-2023, 07:59 PMFluw Wrote: If these players were smart they would have used their money to get their family out of Russia, country has a bleak future. And I doubt it's just fear unfortunately Eastern Europe is extremely conservative and anti-gay in general, I am almost willing to bet a lot of them support those views as it is what has been pushed for generations. Is it all? Probably not. Is it a majority, most likely. Speaking as an Eastern European by heritage myself, it's just commonplace unfortunately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Fedotov

Duff101 · 03-09-2023, 03:13 AM

Considering Russia is essentially run by murderous gangsters I think I am willing to give Russian players a little slack when it comes to staying quiet on these things. Remember earlier last year when there was a legitimate concern Kaprizov would be pressed into the army cuz of falsified documents.
I do think it’s a little rich criticizing people for not sticking their neck out in the face of a government that has attempted to murder dissidents in pretty blatant fashion from behind the safety of a keyboard

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

***sköldpaddor*** · 03-09-2023, 09:34 AM

how in the hell did we get from a queer person saying “all these teams are canceling pride nights and it makes me feel sad” to a bunch of people mansplaining how she actually has to feel okay with it because Russia bad?

Gooney · 03-09-2023, 10:14 AM

03-09-2023, 09:34 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: how in the hell did we get from a queer person saying “all these teams are canceling pride nights and it makes me feel sad” to a bunch of people mansplaining how she actually has to feel okay with it because Russia bad?

+2

spooked · 03-09-2023, 10:20 AM

03-09-2023, 09:34 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: how in the hell did we get from a queer person saying “all these teams are canceling pride nights and it makes me feel sad” to a bunch of people mansplaining how she actually has to feel okay with it because Russia bad?

This is a general discussion section of a forum? Are we not supposed to discuss anything? Also no one said she has to feel okay about it, just that there may be more reasons why its happening this season and wasn't last, which was something that was brought up in the discussion in this thread. Like yeah of course, be fucking mad as hell about it, let the orgs know you are disappointed in them, but that doesn't mean there aren't some valid things to discuss on here for people who wanted to talk about it.

***sköldpaddor*** · 03-09-2023, 10:44 AM

03-09-2023, 10:20 AMspooked Wrote: This is a general discussion section of a forum? Are we not supposed to discuss anything? Also no one said she has to feel okay about it, just that there may be more reasons why its happening this season and wasn't last, which was something that was brought up in the discussion in this thread. If that wasn't clear, then yeah, be fucking mad as hell about it, let the orgs know you are disappointed in them, but that doesn't mean there aren't some valid things to discuss on here.

I think there’s room to discuss that stuff without immediately rushing into a thread to make excuses for organizational decisions that actively alienate people who already consistently feel othered.

I obviously have a lot of sympathy for people who are from even more dangerous environments but I live in a country where people are actively trying to legislate away my rights as a woman and a queer person, and caving to the pressure from bigots in other countries just doesn’t feel like progress. You want to talk about how the rich white athletes are in danger? How about we talk about the epidemic of violence against LGBTQ people right here in the US, which has been escalating over the past decade (even according to the FBI statistics, which are notoriously under-reported and likely far short of the actual number) in spite of all our “progress.”

It’s okay for us to feel like this is a step backwards. It’s okay for us to not trust that the organizations are doing this for altruistic reasons, because what reason do we have to trust them? Why do I owe a club in a sport that has failed us time and time again the benefit of “oh they’re probably doing it for a good reason.” You can debate it all you want, but in the end, we are disappointed, and we have a right to be. Giving us the “but think of these rich white athletes they might be in danger!” is kind of a slap in the face. We’re in danger every damn day just for existing.

spooked · 03-09-2023, 10:50 AM

03-09-2023, 10:44 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: I think there’s room to discuss that stuff without immediately rushing into a thread to make excuses for organizational decisions that actively alienate people who already consistently feel othered.

I obviously have a lot of sympathy for people who are from even more dangerous environments but I live in a country where people are actively trying to legislate away my rights as a woman and a queer person, and caving to the pressure from bigots in other countries just doesn’t feel like progress. You want to talk about how the rich white athletes are in danger? How about we talk about the epidemic of violence against LGBTQ people right here in the US, which has been escalating over the past decade (even according to the FBI statistics, which are notoriously under-reported and likely far short of the actual number) in spite of all our “progress.”

It’s okay for us to feel like this is a step backwards. It’s okay for us to not trust that the organizations are doing this for altruistic reasons, because what reason do we have to trust them? Why do I owe a club in a sport that has failed us time and time again the benefit of “oh they’re probably doing it for a good reason.” You can debate it all you want, but in the end, we are disappointed, and we have a right to be. Giving us the “but think of these rich white athletes they might be in danger!” is kind of a slap in the face. We’re in danger every damn day just for existing.

100%, but it's also okay for us to discuss the topic here because it's in a general discussion forum. No one said it was okay or that anyone shouldn't be mad from what I read/remember, and characterising us all as doing that isn't right either.

spooked · 03-09-2023, 10:52 AM

Like I personally completely agree with you @sköldpaddor , and @boom I know I didn't intend to change or invalidate any of your feelings. I just wanted to talk about the issue in a honest way, and if that wasn't what you intended fair enough, but this is also a forum so if we aren't supposed to discuss things here I am not sure what this area of the site is for.

***sköldpaddor*** · 03-09-2023, 01:31 PM

03-09-2023, 10:52 AMspooked Wrote: Like I personally completely agree with you @sköldpaddor , and @boom I know I didn't intend to change or invalidate any of your feelings. I just wanted to talk about the issue in a honest way, and if that wasn't what you intended fair enough, but this is also a forum so if we aren't supposed to discuss things here I am not sure what this area of the site is for.

Not sure why the double ping was necessary, I'm doing my real life job over here :')

But anyway, I'm not saying you can't discuss things. I'm saying that when you respond to someone who is distressed about something in a way that minimizes their feelings and seems to be making excuses for the thing that's upsetting them, they're going to push back.

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