Genuinely who gives a shit if people are dunking for how often it happens? If they cross a line into conduct violation than nab them for that. Minor procedural punishments like this one are going to at worst draw some "Fire Gabe"s. Looking back through punishment history the average punishment thread is usually everyone including the user involved making a quick joke and leaving it at that. This feels less like it's about protecting users from getting dunked on and more about insulating HO from criticism. The increase in thread locks on anything that becomes moderately uncomfortable or tense is glaring and infantilizes the user base by assuming people cannot handle the slightest ounce of conflict or talk things out
03-30-2024, 01:29 PMSchwarzNarr Wrote: I think it's really just mental purpose of the site sections. I get that it's probably 6 of one half dozen of the other for most people, but after a discussion about it in J HO, ultimately we felt it was a more positive move to just begin locking all threads we post to the punishment forum.
I respect u for responding I guess I just disagree because I don't see a fundamental difference
I just personally think like there's no real reason for the rule, especially when some still not approved users were complaining about no teams dming them while others were talking about so many teams being in contact. It makes it dependent on when interns can approve them, and like, with portal, player creation before draft can't really bring any big problem. I also do think locking the channel was an... interesting move, I can see why, but I also applaud the creation of this thread. But like, don't value my opinion it's not like I got punished for my stupidity.
All in all uhhhh pls don't fire me my name is not gabe
03-30-2024, 01:57 PMnotorioustig Wrote: Genuinely who gives a shit if people are dunking for how often it happens? If they cross a line into conduct violation than nab them for that. Minor procedural punishments like this one are going to at worst draw some "Fire Gabe"s. Looking back through punishment history the average punishment thread is usually everyone including the user involved making a quick joke and leaving it at that. This feels less like it's about protecting users from getting dunked on and more about insulating HO from criticism. The increase in thread locks on anything that becomes moderately uncomfortable or tense is glaring and infantilizes the user base by assuming people cannot handle the slightest ounce of conflict or talk things out
My hero.
Credit to Ml002, King, Wasty, Carpy, Bruins10, Rum_Ham, Turd Ferguson, Ragnar and Enigmatic for the sigs.
Just my two cents on the thread-closing discussion: Keeping the punishment threads open for people to discuss in there allows HO to somewhat set the narrative and guide the discussion, whereas when you insta-close the thread and wait for someone else to open a new one to complain, it will be their initial "hot take" that sets the tone of the discussion. I don't see that as much of a win for HO.
03-30-2024, 04:09 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Just my two cents on the thread-closing discussion: Keeping the punishment threads open for people to discuss in there allows HO to somewhat set the narrative and guide the discussion, whereas when you insta-close the thread and wait for someone else to open a new one to complain, it will be their initial "hot take" that sets the tone of the discussion. I don't see that as much of a win for HO.
Red I can't lie I saw you in this thread for the past hour I thought you'd post something 3x as long
03-30-2024, 01:12 PMsköldpaddor Wrote: 1. We've had the discussion about rookie mentors and J GMing before, and those of us who serve both roles are held to pretty high standards when it comes to the crossover. It has been discussed many, many times. I've always said I would be happy to step down as mentor if it became an issue, but it has been revisited ad nauseam and has never proven to be an actual issue. All of the J GMs get to be in the rookie servers as spies, so all of them can see when a new user joins the discord and gets excited. All of the J GMs get to see in multiple places when new players are approved. This was just a slip up of multiple people not realizing a player hadn't been approved yet.
2. I can't speak for the other teams but it wasn't even either of NBB's GMs who actually did the early contacting - was just somebody who happened to know the player who created, was new to the scouting team, and didn't realize they couldn't talk to them. It actually happened before I, the rookie mentor/J GM even realized that person had created at all, so I'm not sure how this has anything at all to do with me being both.
3. This thread is the reason SHL HO has just started issuing end of season fines to GMs and simmers without posting them on site. Anyone who needs to know is aware of it (budget, the GMs in question) and anybody who's just interested in memeing or making people feel worse about something than they already do doesn't even need to know in the first place.
I disagree with two of these..
1. Regardless of J GMs abilities to be spies in any of these channels, I think it's a bad optic to have a rookie mentor be a J GM. Just as I think it's bad optics for GMs to hold other various jobs across the site that can be viewed as conflicts of interest.
3. I think the solution of not posting punishments/fines on the site is silly. I don't think it's setting the site up for accountability and transparency in its actions and decision making. Taking away that transparency can make it easier for other users to make the same mistakes. Id argue a lot of the people read the rule book like they read the fine print on any tech user agreements. I think clerical errors, which I'm assuming is what most of these fines stem from, are just as important to publicly report as more serious punishments.
Specifically talking about GMs getting punished, I think those threads can be used as one of many gauges for users as to how well a team is managed. Especially users who aren't super in tune with the league. If a GM gets fined repeatedly for not doing their job well, I'd wanna know before I got drafted and/or traded there.
If people can't deal with criticism of them not doing their jobs correctly and breaking rules, maybe they shouldn't hold jobs on the site that put them in those positions.
As someone else mentioned if it gets out of hand, that's where HO steps in.
03-30-2024, 10:52 PM(This post was last modified: 03-30-2024, 10:53 PM by Ruggsy. Edited 1 time in total.)
Don't really understand why being a gm and a mentor comes into play here. If the mentor didn't get punished because they had mentor privileges then sure. But if anything this proves the opposite.
I've been a mentor while being a gm and while not being a gm. I have always been willing to throw any team under the bus if I thought they were doing something sketchy. Never had to for this though.
Would love to see a real situation where this was an issue if it exists though. From my experience the gm mentors are the ones that the the first gens find the most helpful because they are the ones who care the most. Is what it is
I'm a believer in the spirit of the rules, and I'm just trying to get the point of the rule itself.
Like if I'm a super active gm and see a new player get created, getting that player engaged as soon as possible is a good thing for me, the player, and thus the league right? But gms have to wait, because other gms aren't as active as me? That's a quality or perk that I have that they don't. Other gms are great at doing lines and roles and I might suck at it. We don't govern those with knowledge, tell them they can only use what strats since bozo gm uses to level the field...
If this is to stand we are no better than the beast in the field. And I'm not talking about the common chicken. I'm talking about the might oxen and the donkey. With his floppy ears, his pea brain, and his stolid, slack-jaw gaze. A Revolting Creature!! If there ever was one!! Who walked the earth!!
Colorado Raptors Capitan S42-Until Forever! Czechia Wants you! Ask about a transfer!!
03-30-2024, 10:52 PMRuggsy Wrote: Don't really understand why being a gm and a mentor comes into play here. If the mentor didn't get punished because they had mentor privileges then sure. But if anything this proves the opposite.
I've been a mentor while being a gm and while not being a gm. I have always been willing to throw any team under the bus if I thought they were doing something sketchy. Never had to for this though.
Would love to see a real situation where this was an issue if it exists though. From my experience the gm mentors are the ones that the the first gens find the most helpful because they are the ones who care the most. Is what it is
Exactly my point, which is why I think the rule is kind of dumb. The GMs are usually the best, or among the best possible people for that role because they care, and are motivated. They know both sides of the league. So to me, it pretty much should just be the rule disappearing, rather than banning GMs from mentoring.
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