05-14-2024, 09:46 AM(This post was last modified: 05-14-2024, 09:54 AM by Tate. Edited 2 times in total.)
Before you fully assess my complaint, please listen to some of my audiobook found here. Just skim through it, I added sound effects, voices, changed pitch, sped up sounds, put tracks on top of tracks, and believe it to be a wild ride.
Last night I was extremely upset as I was awarded 4.2 million for my audiobook that is over 4 hours long. The grading team cited this reason:
"Unfortunately, we do have a policy about resubmissions of media; as you had done the story in text form and been paid out for it, the media team was not comfortable giving you the same payout for the same story, regardless of the form it was delivered in. However, we realize this is not clearly stated, which put us into a bit of a bind.
We decided on a 60 minute payout, which is the standard for podcast grades as 60 minutes is the maximum length for grades where it caps out."
First of all to say it was a resubmission is to not listen to the audiobook, not only did I edit out parts of the written version, I did a completely revamped live action version with sound production. It took me an average of 3 episodes per day to record, 5 days to record all of my audiobook, and that doesn't include the time spent editing.
I fully expected to be paid more than the time my recording was for, so to be paid only for 1 hour of 4 hours of work, was very upsetting. Especially if you listen to the audiobook, because you'll know it was a labor of love. Here is how I know that the grading team did not listen to my audiobook:
Look at all those zeros. Not a single episode listened to after episode 3, and the only reason 15 has so many is because it is the first one that plays when you open the link.
When I messaged the Mike Liut @MikeLiut about my pay discrepancy, we really got into it, and rather than Mike listening to my reasoning or even bothering to listen to my audiobook he held steadfast in his opinion and told me that I had already been paid enough for the written version, and that he would not pay me anymore.
What an unbelievable stance for a team that should hunger for creative media like mine. This is highly discouraging and goes against the spirit of roleplay. If someone wants to write a character who starts in the future, and travels back through time, they should be able to. We should encourage more media like mine, and not discourage people like me by paying me less than what I produced and telling me that I am double dipping.
Listen to what I did on my audiobook. That is really hard to do. I happen to have a bit of a stutter, editing myself was a bit of a nightmare. And to put myself out there by making different voices, and trying to be entertaining should be commended. I did voices of Vladimir Putin, Odin, and added in effects of a raven attacking... bullet sounds... like c'mon!
There is a saying in medicine, do no harm. Harm has been done here, and I would like to be paid for the full amount of my recorded time (the posted time of over 4 hours).
Why do I think that is fair?
When I published my novella, I had to do so because the grading team would not allow me to post media that didn't have to do with my player in present day. Since my story started in 858 AD, I had to write it all out in one chunk. This is why I put my audiobook out in one chunk, because it was the full story. That should not disqualify me from pay, and the grading team should hold me to the same standard that they did with my book.
All in all, this has put me in a bad position because my outlet is roleplaying and storytelling and now I don't know if I can ever do what I did again, because of the huge hassle this has caused me.
I believe that media rules should accommodate media such as mine, and should be promoted/encouraged, rather than roadblocked. I think Mike in particular should recognize opportunities like this and find ways to help me, not block me or shut me down. He thinks I'm taking too much money for what I did, but he hasn't even listened to it. Do me a favor, check it out, and tell me if you still believe that by the end of 4 hours that it was only worth 1.
This is bad form. Please allow others like myself to continue to be able to create interesting media for this site and league.
That sounds really frustrating, it looks like you put in a ton of effort. Unfortunately I remember from my time as the Video Grader it can be difficult to evaluate the amount of effort some of the unique media can take to produce.
Why don't you create a grading metric for future audio books? I don't think I have seen anyone create an audio book before and I bet the graders would appreciate having another grading resource to fall back on that isn't just podcasts.
Hey Tate! I completely get your frustration as somebody who puts a ton of work into my narrative as well, and I think what you've made is really cool here. I do think it's valid to expect *some* additional pay on top of what you were paid for the written version, since it's clear this is a different medium, with a lot of extra work and production put into it.
We do have limitations on how much you can submit per week when it comes to audio/podcasts, though, and if you are expecting the grading team to bend those rules for you, that is something that should be discussed beforehand. It's frustrating to not get paid for your work, but I'm sure it's also frustrating for the grading team to be presented with something that will take hours to fully listen to/assess and to be asked to make special exceptions to the system in place.
The media team worked with you to allow you to get paid for media that was not clearly related to your player (though I understand that it would eventually lead to your player, some of this is just really solid writing that could be read completely out of the context of the SHL and be a compelling story anyway), I think it is fair for them to ask you to work within the bounds of the system we've established here for the podcast as well.
Could you perhaps do the audio drama in installments with some kind of intro/tie-in to your player with each one? Some kind of intro telling us exactly how this is related to your SHL player and not just a cool story (because it is a very cool story)? You've put a ton of work into this, and I want to see you rewarded for that, but there has to be some kind of clear indicator of how this is relevant in the league it's being published in if you're going to get paid money in that league for it, and it needs to be submitted in accordance with the guidelines we have in place for media.
05-14-2024, 10:26 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: Hey Tate! I completely get your frustration as somebody who puts a ton of work into my narrative as well, and I think what you've made is really cool here. I do think it's valid to expect *some* additional pay on top of what you were paid for the written version, since it's clear this is a different medium, with a lot of extra work and production put into it.
We do have limitations on how much you can submit per week when it comes to audio/podcasts, though, and if you are expecting the grading team to bend those rules for you, that is something that should be discussed beforehand. It's frustrating to not get paid for your work, but I'm sure it's also frustrating for the grading team to be presented with something that will take hours to fully listen to/assess and to be asked to make special exceptions to the system in place.
The media team worked with you to allow you to get paid for media that was not clearly related to your player (though I understand that it would eventually lead to your player, some of this is just really solid writing that could be read completely out of the context of the SHL and be a compelling story anyway), I think it is fair for them to ask you to work within the bounds of the system we've established here for the podcast as well.
Could you perhaps do the audio drama in installments with some kind of intro/tie-in to your player with each one? Some kind of intro telling us exactly how this is related to your SHL player and not just a cool story (because it is a very cool story)? You've put a ton of work into this, and I want to see you rewarded for that, but there has to be some kind of clear indicator of how this is relevant in the league it's being published in if you're going to get paid money in that league for it, and it needs to be submitted in accordance with the guidelines we have in place for media.
I stated my logic on why I posted it in full, as the media team told me I had to connect it to the present. However, I would challenge that overall, because this site should be just as much about story as it is about the sim.
The media I wrote in its entirety is related to my player, that's why it's called the Last Descendant, Savva Kirik is the last descendant of the founder of Russia (spoiler). If I intro'ed that and told you at the start of every episode, it would ruin the whole point of the build up of the story. Know what I mean? The idea is to follow the journey for the pay off, because the story is cyclical. The overall theme repeats, which is why I don't want to ruin it for people... I want them to enjoy it, and reach that final point where they go, "Holy crap!"
Where the team did not work with me here is reaching out over my audiobook. When I posted my first article that took place in 858 AD, they said it was a no go, and such is why I wrote the whole thing out in one go. However, I should have been given the same heads up about the audiobook, told to post 1 hour a week (but again, they said I need to connect to present so I went with it in one go).
However, back to the initial challenge of storytelling... is this not what you want? I created a hockey player, tied him to the creation of Russia as a country, had him align with the god Odin, and use supernatural powers to defeat Vladimir Putin.... all while getting drafted by the Kelowna Knights, and Specters.
Y'all should be all over this, because it's fun, and different (in my eyes). Last time around I wrote about a player who became his own version of John Wick... that's who I am. I'm not best suited for deep dives, I struggle with those. But get me to write an out of this world tale about aliens invading the SHL through clones? I'm all in.
I don't think I'm being unreasonable, I am one of the personalities that exists here, let a flower bloom
05-14-2024, 12:18 PMRAmenAmen Wrote: We do not pay the media graders nearly enough to subject them to 4 hour audiobooks.
No problem on grading 1 hour a week until it is done. But, you've given me an opportunity to explain my side a little bit more.
I knew that when I posted my novella, hardly anyone would read it. You'd have to be a, "reader," to jump into something that long when the world mostly operates in TLDR . I am one of those, "readers," so this sort of stuff is what pulls me in. I say all of that to explain that I was proud of my story, and wanted it to be released in a version that was more accessible. Something you could listen to in the car, or in transit.
Before I ended up recording, I listened to two different narrators narrate Harry Potter, to get a sense of feel and timing. Going through my book was a fantastic exercise as I ended up changing parts, and making more edits. The irony is that the recorded version still has mistakes!
Anyway, this was an interesting experiment for me as I also shared my audiobook with my wife, and a very good friend of mine... both of who confessed that they still have yet to listen to it (I know that now, from my stats page). So in doing all that I did, little interaction came from it... which overall is a bit of a let down.
I recognize that people are busy, and life is stressful. I am not trying to force people to enjoy media, but media is a big function of this site and it is what pulled me in.
That being said, I'm still very proud of what I did, my audiobook is way better than the written version and the one benefit in all of this is the enjoyment I had in creating it. This experience tells me I'm likely not to do it again for the SHL but I started on a road I enjoy, and have more stories to explore.
05-14-2024, 10:44 AMTate Wrote: Where the team did not work with me here is reaching out over my audiobook. When I posted my first article that took place in 858 AD, they said it was a no go, and such is why I wrote the whole thing out in one go. However, I should have been given the same heads up about the audiobook, told to post 1 hour a week (but again, they said I need to connect to present so I went with it in one go).
Why do you expect them to reach out, gove you a heads up about something they had no idea was going on? You hold them to a standard you yourself didn't hold yourself to. This could all have been avoided by inquiring about your idea initially.
I might be misunderstanding what you're saying or missed the part you said that, but seems to me this was easily avoidable by initiating the discussion yourself amd trying to work with the grading team for an idea currently uncovered by the rules.
Great project, I think nobody is taking that away from you, but to expect what you did from them feels excessive.
05-14-2024, 02:23 PMFrenchie Wrote: Why do you expect them to reach out, gove you a heads up about something they had no idea was going on? You hold them to a standard you yourself didn't hold yourself to. This could all have been avoided by inquiring about your idea initially.
I might be misunderstanding what you're saying or missed the part you said that, but seems to me this was easily avoidable by initiating the discussion yourself amd trying to work with the grading team for an idea currently uncovered by the rules.
Great project, I think nobody is taking that away from you, but to expect what you did from them feels excessive.
You're not wrong in that there is fault on both sides here. My only point on that is the they did reach out for my novella, and because of the standard they set (do it all so that it connects) , that is why I thought they would be pumped about my audiobook. I actually thought the reaction would have been way different, with them being pro active with praise (lol). But when they didn't reach out, I figured we were all good.
What I did isn't normal, I know that... I got really excited, and spent over two months on my media overall. To have it end like this is a tough pill to swallow. I don't feel like I am entitled to certain treatment, but I'm not an expert in all things media, and while I did read the rule book - there has never been an audiobook before, so I was like, "Hell yes, this is going to be awesome."
To me, this is the opposite way of embracing creative media, and hence my big stink about it. But good lord, I spent some hard earned time on it, least you can do is give me pay for time I have provided to the site. It's content, for some, and if I entertain one person - I've won.
05-14-2024, 02:34 PMTate Wrote: You're not wrong in that there is fault on both sides here. My only point on that is the they did reach out for my novella, and because of the standard they set (do it all so that it connects) , that is why I thought they would be pumped about my audiobook. I actually thought the reaction would have been way different, with them being pro active with praise (lol). But when they didn't reach out, I figured we were all good.
What I did isn't normal, I know that... I got really excited, and spent over two months on my media overall. To have it end like this is a tough pill to swallow. I don't feel like I am entitled to certain treatment, but I'm not an expert in all things media, and while I did read the rule book - there has never been an audiobook before, so I was like, "Hell yes, this is going to be awesome."
To me, this is the opposite way of embracing creative media, and hence my big stink about it. But good lord, I spent some hard earned time on it, least you can do is give me pay for time I have provided to the site. It's content, for some, and if I entertain one person - I've won.
I get all that, but this is you assuming things and getting upset it didn't work the way you expected/wanted. Can you be upset? Sure, but I don't think the media team is at fault here, they didn't say anything that can reasonably be thougt to feed your assumptions erroneously.
I think you're reading this wrong, in that they're not trying to inhibit creative projects, but VERY SIMPLY just following the rules and procedures. Its been said already but I'll reiterate, this could've been avoided and worked around if you'd have initiated a conversation and fogured a way to get compensated within reason and according to the work you put in.
I hope you continue doing projects such as this one and that moving forward this can be a lesson for all.
05-14-2024, 02:34 PMTate Wrote: You're not wrong in that there is fault on both sides here. My only point on that is the they did reach out for my novella, and because of the standard they set (do it all so that it connects) , that is why I thought they would be pumped about my audiobook. I actually thought the reaction would have been way different, with them being pro active with praise (lol). But when they didn't reach out, I figured we were all good.
What I did isn't normal, I know that... I got really excited, and spent over two months on my media overall. To have it end like this is a tough pill to swallow. I don't feel like I am entitled to certain treatment, but I'm not an expert in all things media, and while I did read the rule book - there has never been an audiobook before, so I was like, "Hell yes, this is going to be awesome."
To me, this is the opposite way of embracing creative media, and hence my big stink about it. But good lord, I spent some hard earned time on it, least you can do is give me pay for time I have provided to the site. It's content, for some, and if I entertain one person - I've won.
You did get paid though, arguably multiple times for the same words, which was a generous move by the grading team even if you put them in a new format. Between text and audio, you made $55M off this piece, which is enough to completely funf your player for multiple seasons.
I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't do creative work, but several rules were bent to allow this to go through and get graded, and your approach here comes across as extremely dismissive to the media team who would have been well within their rights to disqualify some or all of this media.
05-14-2024, 02:39 PMFrenchie Wrote: I get all that, but this is you assuming things and getting upset it didn't work the way you expected/wanted. Can you be upset? Sure, but I don't think the media team is at fault here, they didn't say anything that can reasonably be thougt to feed your assumptions erroneously.
I think you're reading this wrong, in that they're not trying to inhibit creative projects, but VERY SIMPLY just following the rules and procedures. Its been said already but I'll reiterate, this could've been avoided and worked around if you'd have initiated a conversation and fogured a way to get compensated within reason and according to the work you put in.
I hope you continue doing projects such as this one and that moving forward this can be a lesson for all.
We'll have to agree to disagree on some of this. I think resolving issues with members should come out on the positive, especially when they do something unique and out of the box.
05-14-2024, 02:43 PMRAmenAmen Wrote: You did get paid though, arguably multiple times for the same words, which was a generous move by the grading team even if you put them in a new format. Between text and audio, you made $55M off this piece, which is enough to completely funf your player for multiple seasons.
I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't do creative work, but several rules were bent to allow this to go through and get graded, and your approach here comes across as extremely dismissive to the media team who would have been well within their rights to disqualify some or all of this media.
It doesn't take away from the time and work that went into my audiobook, that's why I ask that you skim through it before you make a judgement. Again, for me, solving a problem with a person should have both sides happy. We should be happy to have members like me create media like I did, and also happy to reward them. I genuinely do not feel like I cheated the system, I gave 110% on my audiobook. My impression of Putin in Ep. 12 is remarkable considering how god awful I am at doing voices.
I really tried, and I shouldn't be faulted for it. More help than push back. Anywho, not trying to point at Mike and co, I get what they're doing --- but they also didn't listen, so.
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