my recruit should have to randomly guess what nation I'm on to come play with me? they should have to have known the site intricately and found out on their own what team their recruiter is on to go play with them? should new players NOT be allowed to value the people on the team over some other random attribute??
is "due diligence" punting new players to Canada and USA forever and ever and forcing them to transfer out or never get a shot?
FWIW if I were still on the appeals cmte I'd vote to overturn this. This rule, while well meaning and applied by IIHF HO to the letter of the law certainly violates the spirit of the league. I'd recommend this be rewritten asap.
n. Illegal Contact with a current or prospective user, prior to their player being created and approved, in the purpose of them creating for a specific Federation.
I think we should circle back to why this rule was implemented, when this rule was created was this sort of scenario taken into account?
Illegal Contact is defined as:
In subsection 2, Daevin did not state a specific role that was planned or anything for the player. Just that "Latvia needs players" at the time Daevin was NOT yet a member of the Latvian Federation. It was also a joke about Latvia being a small federation and not a recruiting message.
In subsection 3, Contact with the intent of influencing or changing a user's mind. A member of a Federation or Federation Head should appear objective and be promoting the league first and foremost over your Federation.
At the time of the alleged offense, Daevin was not yet a member of the Latvian Federation, he actually became a member of Latvia after this conversation (he was an uncommitted IIHF player). Per subsection 3, it specifically mentions "A member of a Federation or Federation Head" Daevin did not fill this requirement at the time and this rule should not apply to this situation.
In subsection 4, Recruitment comments on Reddit, Discord, or non-SHL forums, such as a "Join our Federation" message.
Daevin made a joke that a prospective user should join Latvia as the prospective user was going to create a player with a Latvian name. He did not advertise or make recruitment comments.
After Daevin had this conversation (joking about how Latvia is a small federation), he decided that he himself should join the federation, which would make it look worse than what the conversation and "tampering" actually was.
In summary, Daevin does not meet the specific criteria set out in the punishment. I would also argue that allowing Federation members to talk to members currently in their Federation about their intentions of recreating is more tampering than talking to a friend outside of the league about the creation of their first player like Daevin did. How is it fair to punish Daevin who doesn't know the exact ins and outs of specific transfer rules, who wanted to bring a friend that wanted to play with them? Daevin was not yet a member of the federation at the time of the alleged offense which I believe should lessen or remove the punishment. Daevin is also at the end of his second season in the league which should give him more leniency as he has barely dipped his toes into the IIHF/WJC (12 gp) so actively discouraging him to not care about the international side of the sim by suspending him should not be the punishment. The user Daevin was talking to did not even join the league, which would mean it gave no teams a disadvantage or advantage which is why tampering is a rule to begin with.
Maybe we should allow each federation under say 25 or 30 active players tamper as much as they want, just need to update those numbers seasonally to keep track who has the tampering pass and who doesn't, at some point they might reach the limit and have about one third of the player base of Canada and USA which definitely will broke the balance of IIHF
01-10-2025, 11:43 AMTheOPSquid Wrote: Rule in question:
n. Illegal Contact with a current or prospective user, prior to their player being created and approved, in the purpose of them creating for a specific Federation.
I think we should circle back to why this rule was implemented, when this rule was created was this sort of scenario taken into account?
Illegal Contact is defined as:
In subsection 2, Daevin did not state a specific role that was planned or anything for the player. Just that "Latvia needs players" at the time Daevin was NOT yet a member of the Latvian Federation. It was also a joke about Latvia being a small federation and not a recruiting message.
In subsection 3, Contact with the intent of influencing or changing a user's mind. A member of a Federation or Federation Head should appear objective and be promoting the league first and foremost over your Federation.
At the time of the alleged offense, Daevin was not yet a member of the Latvian Federation, he actually became a member of Latvia after this conversation (he was an uncommitted IIHF player). Per subsection 3, it specifically mentions "A member of a Federation or Federation Head" Daevin did not fill this requirement at the time and this rule should not apply to this situation.
In subsection 4, Recruitment comments on Reddit, Discord, or non-SHL forums, such as a "Join our Federation" message.
Daevin made a joke that a prospective user should join Latvia as the prospective user was going to create a player with a Latvian name. He did not advertise or make recruitment comments.
After Daevin had this conversation (joking about how Latvia is a small federation), he decided that he himself should join the federation, which would make it look worse than what the conversation and "tampering" actually was.
In summary, Daevin does not meet the specific criteria set out in the punishment. I would also argue that allowing Federation members to talk to members currently in their Federation about their intentions of recreating is more tampering than talking to a friend outside of the league about the creation of their first player like Daevin did. How is it fair to punish Daevin who doesn't know the exact ins and outs of specific transfer rules, who wanted to bring a friend that wanted to play with them? Daevin was not yet a member of the federation at the time of the alleged offense which I believe should lessen or remove the punishment. Daevin is also at the end of his second season in the league which should give him more leniency as he has barely dipped his toes into the IIHF/WJC (12 gp) so actively discouraging him to not care about the international side of the sim by suspending him should not be the punishment. The user Daevin was talking to did not even join the league, which would mean it gave no teams a disadvantage or advantage which is why tampering is a rule to begin with.
And I thought I was the one with the Law Degree.
My professor from Legislation would be proud of you.
This whole situation has for sure opened up a big can of worms. Regardless, I hope some clarification with the rules can help a lot.
Claude L'Castor #70||Goaltender||Nevada Battleborn/Buffalo Stampede
To provide some clarity on a couple common questions or concerns I've seen:
Daevin has been very helpful and accommodating. They're the one who provided the screenshot and have helped paint the picture as to what happened.
As for why Popol's punishment was different, Popol tampered players to encourage them to transfer. This is really easy to rectify, as we can put a hold on those players affected transfers to the nation in question, allowing everyone else interested to even the playing field in the meantime.
Since this is at creation, it's not possible to un-do a birthplace, at least unless we do something new. Since the next most lenient punishments we can give is a short suspension or a fine, we proceeded with a suspension as we had precedent from the sparky tampering case in terms of lenient tampering punishment.
I too agree that a short suspension is still a bit more impactful then the aforementioned Popol punishment though, so I personally was in favor of a non-punishment here to begin, but the point was made that tampering did occur and therefore something should be assessed to DarthDaevin and then I was 50/50 on the issue.
With regards to the tampered user not creating a player, so to would an attempt to tamper a transfer target be punished even if no transfer occurred.
All this being said, we are currently discussing the punishment again as well as the tampering rule as whole. I can't stress enough that I appreciate all your input and sharing. I've had multiple positive conversations with concern community members yesterday and today, so thank you all!
01-10-2025, 11:43 AMTheOPSquid Wrote: I think we should circle back to why this rule was implemented, when this rule was created was this sort of scenario taken into account?
Tampering with regards to creation was in play from the founding of the IIHF in S20 to some point in the S55's. It was then reinstated about ~S70.
The rule was implemented to prevent IIHF recruitment prior to approval and creation, so this scenario is accounted for.
That being said, and referencing my above statement: I too feel a suspension, even being short, doesn't quite translate as well to "slap on the wrist" as I'd personally like, so I agree we appear to lack tools to discipline an accidental rule break with regards to tampering at creation.
01-10-2025, 11:43 AMTheOPSquid Wrote: Illegal Contact is defined as:
In subsection 3, Contact with the intent of influencing or changing a user's mind. A member of a Federation or Federation Head should appear objective and be promoting the league first and foremost over your Federation.
At the time of the alleged offense, Daevin was not yet a member of the Latvian Federation, he actually became a member of Latvia after this conversation (he was an uncommitted IIHF player). Per subsection 3, it specifically mentions "A member of a Federation or Federation Head" Daevin did not fill this requirement at the time and this rule should not apply to this situation.
Not an unfair point at all.
Since I was involved in the rewrite two years ago, I can offer that the illegal contact in this section is meant to be "Contact with the intent of influencing or changing a user's mind", while the following sentence "A member of a Federation or Federation Head should appear objective and be promoting the league first and foremost over your Federation" was included to help set the tone for what should be expected.
This sentence was part of the previous rulebook's writing, and was well-worded enough that we wanted to include it, but it did not fit under the example section. I do agree that it appears misleading though, as we did well to reword 6.n to include non-fed heads and non federation players, but obviously failed to properly to fix the example you've provided.
Definitely something I will bring up in HO to add to our rewrite talks.
MWHazard Wrote:i'll playwith anyone
playing with my teammates is part of the intangibles I bring to the table
i play with them a lot.
they didn't like it at first
but after a while, it just felt normal
Justice,Sep 18 2016, 02:09 PM Wrote:4-0 and 0-4 aren't that different tbh
McJesus - Today at 10:38 PM Wrote:FIRE EGGY
HIRE ARTY
01-10-2025, 07:56 PMartermis Wrote: To provide some clarity on a couple common questions or concerns I've seen:
Daevin has been very helpful and accommodating. They're the one who provided the screenshot and have helped paint the picture as to what happened.
As for why Popol's punishment was different, Popol tampered players to encourage them to transfer. This is really easy to rectify, as we can put a hold on those players affected transfers to the nation in question, allowing everyone else interested to even the playing field in the meantime.
Since this is at creation, it's not possible to un-do a birthplace, at least unless we do something new. Since the next most lenient punishments we can give is a short suspension or a fine, we proceeded with a suspension as we had precedent from the sparky tampering case in terms of lenient tampering punishment.
I too agree that a short suspension is still a bit more impactful then the aforementioned Popol punishment though, so I personally was in favor of a non-punishment here to begin, but the point was made that tampering did occur and therefore something should be assessed to DarthDaevin and then I was 50/50 on the issue.
With regards to the tampered user not creating a player, so to would an attempt to tamper a transfer target be punished even if no transfer occurred.
All this being said, we are currently discussing the punishment again as well as the tampering rule as whole. I can't stress enough that I appreciate all your input and sharing. I've had multiple positive conversations with concern community members yesterday and today, so thank you all!
Tampering with regards to creation was in play from the founding of the IIHF in S20 to some point in the S55's. It was then reinstated about ~S70.
The rule was implemented to prevent IIHF recruitment prior to approval and creation, so this scenario is accounted for.
That being said, and referencing my above statement: I too feel a suspension, even being short, doesn't quite translate as well to "slap on the wrist" as I'd personally like, so I agree we appear to lack tools to discipline an accidental rule break with regards to tampering at creation.
Not an unfair point at all.
Since I was involved in the rewrite two years ago, I can offer that the illegal contact in this section is meant to be "Contact with the intent of influencing or changing a user's mind", while the following sentence "A member of a Federation or Federation Head should appear objective and be promoting the league first and foremost over your Federation" was included to help set the tone for what should be expected.
This sentence was part of the previous rulebook's writing, and was well-worded enough that we wanted to include it, but it did not fit under the example section. I do agree that it appears misleading though, as we did well to reword 6.n to include non-fed heads and non federation players, but obviously failed to properly to fix the example you've provided.
Definitely something I will bring up in HO to add to our rewrite talks.
And maybe overturn this because it's kinda bogus and goes against the spirit of IIHF which is being able to play with your friends :shrug:
“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. ... There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.”
01-10-2025, 07:58 PMHabsFanFromOntario Wrote: And maybe overturn this because it's kinda bogus and goes against the spirit of IIHF which is being able to play with your friends :shrug:
I can now share that there's has been enough interest in HO to start deliberating again.
MWHazard Wrote:i'll playwith anyone
playing with my teammates is part of the intangibles I bring to the table
i play with them a lot.
they didn't like it at first
but after a while, it just felt normal
Justice,Sep 18 2016, 02:09 PM Wrote:4-0 and 0-4 aren't that different tbh
McJesus - Today at 10:38 PM Wrote:FIRE EGGY
HIRE ARTY
01-10-2025, 08:04 PMartermis Wrote: I can now share that there's has been enough interest in HO to start deliberating again.
Good start, nice !
“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. ... There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.”
jacobcarson877
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Claude L'Castor #70||Goaltender||Nevada Battleborn/Buffalo Stampede 
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