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a_canuck · 02-19-2025, 12:34 PM

As a newer player it was/is hard to identify what jobs a complete beginner is able to do. When I first created my player people told me to apply for this and that but a lot of the postings read with a description of “you know what to send in to apply”

Prayl07 · 02-19-2025, 12:39 PM

Great article!

As a new user I am looking for ways to be more active. I applied for an intern job and unfortunately didn't get it. I try to go with jobs i feel would be good for me as a new member and not higher up ones.

***Frenchie*** · 02-19-2025, 12:39 PM

02-19-2025, 12:15 PMfancey13 Wrote: My personal thoughts on this would be that by expanding the league with a few more teams we are also diluting the TPE per team. All of a sudden a 1200 TPE build will be much more sought after, but adds that much more team value to those 2K TPE max earners. I think by adding in expansion teams without any supporting ways to earn could lead to less user retention, as that is the biggest concern I was trying to highlight.

I agree with you here. That being said, expansion can't always be the solution. Before this was even on the radar, the only real place we had for lower earning userswas on rebuilders, or on teams ascending who took chances on people in hopes that they would grow into it. There was very little space on contenders for such users, which isn't ideal and is unfortunate that they be relegated to getting the competitive scraps so to speak. As we keep growing, the diluted TPE average inflates itself once more, which means the issue comes back. In terms of how we enable this space for such earners, that's an entirely differnt topic.

In terms of supporting ways to earn, I think there are already a ton of ways people can earn, within their own limits. As a league, i'm of the opinion that our duty is to offer equal opportunity, not equal outcome, and there needs to be a line drawn at some point. I know this feels very gatekeepy, but I think we need to understand not everyone will reach 2K TPE, but everyone definitely CAN.

I love having meta conversations with y'all, keep em coming TBH! FWIW this is just my own opinion!

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Leoben · 02-19-2025, 12:46 PM

02-19-2025, 12:09 PMsve7en Wrote: Fwiw I counted based on my interpretation as well
@Leoben

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Wow that’s more than I thought, thanks. @“luke” thanks too.

I guess I’d be curious (I’m not asking for this) to see how many first-gens are actually applying to these positions. I’ll openly admit I’m in one of the categories above and have no real desire to do much else right now. I’ve also been around a while with varying levels of activity. Never really thought about it as indirectly hindering retention, but at the same time I need to get paid too. I know there’s a lot of “I” and “me” in there but I’m sure there are more people with the same mindset.

*Puppy* · 02-19-2025, 01:18 PM

Just here to say great article, love the analysis and data to back it up!

***fancey13*** · 02-19-2025, 06:22 PM

02-19-2025, 12:34 PMa_canuck Wrote: As a newer player it was/is hard to identify what jobs a complete beginner is able to do. When I first created my player people told me to apply for this and that but a lot of the postings read with a description of “you know what to send in to apply”

This is a great point! Adds to the point that maybe new gens aren't applying because they simply don't know how. Would a simpler application process mean that more newer users apply instead of veterans being (not forced) but almost forced into a job? Maybe so! Definitely another topic worth discussing!!

***fancey13*** · 02-19-2025, 06:25 PM

02-19-2025, 12:39 PMPrayl07 Wrote: Great article!

As a new user I am looking for ways to be more active. I applied for an intern job and unfortunately didn't get it. I try to go with jobs i feel would be good for me as a new member and not higher up ones.

Aw that's too bad! I'm sorry that you didn't get it :( from what I've seen and heard from users on that topic it's best to keep trying and applying for positions. Hopefully you aren't too discouraged from applying again because I'm sure there's something out there for you. And who knows, maybe some of what I said in this article comes to fruition and creates some more jobs for users like yourself!

***fancey13*** · 02-19-2025, 06:28 PM

02-19-2025, 12:46 PMLeoben Wrote: Wow that’s more than I thought, thanks. @“luke” thanks too.

I guess I’d be curious (I’m not asking for this) to see how many first-gens are actually applying to these positions. I’ll openly admit I’m in one of the categories above and have no real desire to do much else right now. I’ve also been around a while with varying levels of activity. Never really thought about it as indirectly hindering retention, but at the same time I need to get paid too. I know there’s a lot of “I” and “me” in there but I’m sure there are more people with the same mindset.

I worry less about someone making just enough to max earn and more of users w huge bankrolls holding up jobs that could be for someone who's trying to make their way into a bigger role in the community. At that point the users dont need the money, why stay in the position?

***fancey13*** · 02-19-2025, 06:32 PM

02-19-2025, 12:39 PMFrenchie Wrote: I agree with you here. That being said, expansion can't always be the solution. Before this was even on the radar, the only real place we had for lower earning userswas on rebuilders, or on teams ascending who took chances on people in hopes that they would grow into it. There was very little space on contenders for such users, which isn't ideal and is unfortunate that they be relegated to getting the competitive scraps so to speak. As we keep growing, the diluted TPE average inflates itself once more, which means the issue comes back. In terms of how we enable this space for such earners, that's an entirely differnt topic.

In terms of supporting ways to earn, I think there are already a ton of ways people can earn, within their own limits. As a league, i'm of the opinion that our duty is to offer equal opportunity, not equal outcome, and there needs to be a line drawn at some point. I know this feels very gatekeepy, but I think we need to understand not everyone will reach 2K TPE, but everyone definitely CAN.

I love having meta conversations with y'all, keep em coming TBH! FWIW this is just my own opinion!

To this note, my concern lies more with activity rather than TPE. Sims will always be a fun part of this site and the platform as a whole. It's just a matter of can we continue to generate activity from new users with how much the player pools are expanding.
But also to that note, I'm speaking on my own league experience. Is every user that comes to this site interested in investing as much time as someone else? No, probably not but it'd be nice for there to be more opportunities for users to do that if they please

***SchwarzNarr*** · 02-19-2025, 06:34 PM

02-19-2025, 09:59 AMluke Wrote: Making it where more “entry” level SHL jobs are used for more of the 1st gen’s / no job holders is important. Helps them get into the league more and contribute

I love the idea of more jobs having internship positions that are 1 season rotational 'try it out, see what it's like, get some $$, help do some grunt-work' type jobs.

Internship in the SMJHL has shifted a lot, where it used to be just doing player approvals, and now interns have a large voice in our conversations in HO, without just having the final vote. It's a great peek behind the curtain and see what it's like. I think more places could benefit from doing it, and I know it's something I mulled over with SHL HO about awards back when I was running that ship.

***fancey13*** · 02-19-2025, 06:45 PM

02-19-2025, 06:34 PMSchwarzNarr Wrote: I love the idea of more jobs having internship positions that are 1 season rotational 'try it out, see what it's like, get some $$, help do some grunt-work' type jobs.

Internship in the SMJHL has shifted a lot, where it used to be just doing player approvals, and now interns have a large voice in our conversations in HO, without just having the final vote. It's a great peek behind the curtain and see what it's like. I think more places could benefit from doing it, and I know it's something I mulled over with SHL HO about awards back when I was running that ship.

That's actually a really good idea. I think it could also be kinda combined with some of things I had said as well, for example a chirper mod team. Give a few users a season with it and if it ends up more work for HO to keep up with, then just 86 it. More experimental and creative job ideas can go a long way for the community and I think that you're on to the start of one there

Prayl07 · 02-19-2025, 07:25 PM

02-19-2025, 06:25 PMfancey13 Wrote: Aw that's too bad! I'm sorry that you didn't get it :( from what I've seen and heard from users on that topic it's best to keep trying and applying for positions. Hopefully you aren't too discouraged from applying again because I'm sure there's something out there for you. And who knows, maybe some of what I said in this article comes to fruition and creates some more jobs for users like yourself!

Im definitely not discouraged. I just think sometimes more weight is put into discord activity then some other areas. I am active in our locker room but sometimes the convos on the discord channel are hard to keep up on if you're coming in the middle of it.

I will keep applying but I will also be picky in what I apply for because if, for example, GM or Federation head, i feel for a new user it's out of my ability since I'm new. But for intern spots that seems like a great place to start.

I do appreciate the kind words and great post!

***SchwarzNarr*** · 02-19-2025, 11:01 PM

02-19-2025, 12:34 PMa_canuck Wrote: As a newer player it was/is hard to identify what jobs a complete beginner is able to do. When I first created my player people told me to apply for this and that but a lot of the postings read with a description of “you know what to send in to apply”

It doesn't tend to come until later in the season, but a great job for newer users is applying as a GM for the WJC. It's such a great introduction into some league management, and is a one season gig (that sometimes people do multiple times over) but it's a little lower risk and lower stress than other jobs.

I know it can be super daunting to feel like you're not necessarily getting hired as a new user off the gate - it can sometimes take that season or two to establish yourself where people know what you're bringing to the table, regardless of your official application.

That doesn't mean new users can't get jobs out of the gate!! One great way to help get that support out there is ask your GMs for a recommendation blurb, or asking to help out in your teams war room and team management. It's a great way to just see how the inner workings go (and, at the SMJHL level, we allow teams to pay internal staff for helping out, so it's another entry job in a sense!)

***noxu*** · 02-21-2025, 12:24 PM

I think new users shouldn't be afraid to ask questions. Ask GMs, rookie mentors, the actual people hiring, about the jobs, others in the position - really anyone you can! This will definitely get your name out there and I'm certain people will start to notice you. You might not get a job the first time you apply, but there's lots of jobs out there!

Ask questions, learn about what the jobs need, talk to the people hiring/ other people in that actual position because when it comes to deciding on who they let in, they will see that enthusiasm, that engagement, and in my experience, they will want to give you that chance! This will also help you decide if you are even interested in the position! And my biggest recommendations for an entry level job as a rookie is WJC GM. Last season, I think they had to ask Fed Heads to fill spots because there wasn't enough applicants and the WJC HO are super helpful with teaching you how things work & you don't even need to own FHM for it! So if you are new and want to apply you 1000000% should apply there, it's super easy and let's you get involved!

I really liked the media Fancey and I hope more new users are able to get involved if they truly want to contribute! I think you can even try to look further into the numbers and try to make graphs based on things such as, number of jobs people hold, how long they've been in the community, how long they've held the jobs for, etc...

***frithjofr*** · 02-21-2025, 09:02 PM

02-19-2025, 08:24 AMFrenchie Wrote: Not everyone can be a 2K earner, let alone a 1600+ TPE earner. With the SHL cap being what it is, we need to find ways to value different strata of TPE earners, which also means accepting that some users will struggle with money, be it for time, interest, ability, who knows. What we need to do above all else IMO is find a way to make some space for them. With the upcoming expansion, i'd like to believe we're doing that in part.

This is something I brought up in my recent podcast, which maybe I'll get around to posting here soon.

When I was returning to the league a few seasons back I took an HO intern job, and the bulk of my responsibilities were welcoming new users to the site and occasionally advising users to change their builds - which we only did in the event of someone making one of the "meme" roles, a fighter, goon, whatever you want to call it. From the player's perspective I understand the idea behind it being a desirable roll, but in actual practice, they're a drag on a team. I've always thought that if I knew I couldn't commit a lot of time to the league, and I wouldn't be anywhere near max earning, it would be fun to just be an 7-800 TPE goon and hover around as long as I could until I got tired of it. I wish we had a dedicated 4th line so players like this could fill their niche without sandbagging a team.

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