Originally posted by Maxy@May 8 2014, 11:25 PM

If I'm not mistaken didn't the Leafs come back from a 3-1 deficit in that series and have a hefty lead in the third? You need gritty players like Orr and McLaren against a team like the Bruins or else it never makes it to 7 because your stars are gonna get beat to shit.

Do you know why the Leafs came back in that series and led in game 7 with 10 minutes to go? Because Orr and McClaren were benched in favour of guys like MacArthur. Gardiner was given an opportunity to create havoc on the blue line. Carlyle was forced by injuries to use his most talented players over his grittiest/toughest players, and the result was a far more dangerous, faster, and talented Leafs squad.

"Grit" and "enforcers" are bullshit. The Leafs were much better when they had talent, and when they put in the best players they won.

You know why Orr/McClaren are irrelevant in the playoffs? Because teams don't fight in the playoffs. Phil Kessel took down Chara on his own in that series. The players did a very good job of standing up for each other without Orr and McClaren.

The Leafs were a faster team than the Bruins, which was their one advantage. When the Leafs played their best roster, and not their "toughest roster", they went toe to toe with Boston. They didn't win, but in the end they were a much better and far more dangerous team with Orr/McClaren on the bench and MacArthur/Gardiner given a larger role.

Also, this season teams stopped fighting Orr/McClaren, because they realized it was easier to beat the Leafs with them on the ice. Ignore them, don't fight them, and you can skate around them and keep the puck in Toronto's zone because Orr/McClaren and friends didn't have enough talent to get the puck out of the zone. And maybe they didn't get scored on that shift, but forcing the goalie to hold the puck in the D zone leading to a defensive end faceoff often resulted in a goal or multiple shots for the opposing team.

And just for fun - "grit" and "toughness" is the reason Clarkson got signed, and the reason why he got a 10 game suspension this season. I'm going to take talent over "grit" every single time.

Clarkson is a bum not grit, he's just awful. Grit is most definitely needed in the playoffs. Think back, when was the last time a team won the cup without one true gritty player as a piece of their roster. The reason the Leafs blow is because their roster is awful. They have one.of, if not the worst center core in the.league, three turnover machines on defense, and make the worst signings in the league. If you're blaming the coach for that then more power to ya. Carlyle is the least of the Leafs worries.

Thank you to My boys @Merica and @Ragnar for the lovely sigs!

I don't care what else you guys are talking about but if you didn't see that Colton Orr was one of the Leafs best players who gave everything in that series against Boston you either didn't watch the series or don't know hockey. The end.

Originally posted by Twitchy@May 9 2014, 06:23 PM




And just for fun - "grit" and "toughness" is the reason Clarkson got signed, and the reason why he got a 10 game suspension this season. I'm going to take talent over "grit" every single time.

clarksons instict kicked in to protect kessel from john fucking scott, what if scott had of got a good hold on him and gave him a concussion? then you'd be like why didn't someone jump him

Originally posted by Maxy@May 9 2014, 05:36 PM
Clarkson is a bum not grit, he's just awful. Grit is most definitely needed in the playoffs. Think back, when was the last time a team won the cup without one true gritty player as a piece of their roster.

Teams don't win because of "gritty players". They win because they have strong goaltending, good puck possession, and have two way players. The Leafs have one of those three. And Clarkson was brought in because he was a gritty and tough forward.

The reason the Leafs blow is because their roster is awful. They have one.of, if not the worst center core in the.league, three turnover machines on defense, and make the worst signings in the league. If you're blaming the coach for that then more power to ya. Carlyle is the least of the Leafs worries.

Carlyle has a fair amount of influence as to who joined this roster. So yes, he is responsible for that. As well as the fact that the Leafs got outshot like a 1990's expansion team because his "system" is a joke.

The problem with the Leafs roster is a lack of depth. JVR, Kessel, Bozak, Kadri, Lupul, Kulemin, Bolland are all guys that can play on any team's top 9. The problem is the Leafs don't have any capable third/fourth line type players, or anybody in the top 6 who can play a strong 2 way game. One reason for that, is because Carlyle refuses to play the quality Marlies players he has (D'Amigo, Holland). Another reason is because Carlyle has the face punchers on the fourth line, who don't actually do anything when a player gets hit (like, when Kadri had to fight Hedman earlier in the year and Orr stood around doing nothing). Another reason is because he only runs 3 lines, and doesn't really play his fourth line.

As far as the defence is concerned, Phaneuf is the only top 2 guy, and the team is desperate for another top pairing guy. If you push Carl G down to a second or even third pairing role, with Reilly/Gardner and some Marlies call ups, the defence would look pretty sharp. But because there's only one top guy, and a bunch of good but not great defenceman, they end up embarrassing themselves on the ice.

Or he does dumb things like giving McClement 15 minutes of ice time, or starting off an OT period with McClement/Kulemin. That strategy is "I have no faith in my forwards, Phil Kessel included, so instead of trying to win the game, I'm just going to try to delay this to a penalty shot where we might have a better shot at winning".

Carlyle isn't the guy running the show. As I've said before, Nonis is also to blame. But Carlyle did have a fair amount of influence in the offseason, and he got some of the players he wanted to sign to play his system. The team did worse.

He's not a good coach. The Leafs did about as well as they did with Wilson running the show, despite a vastly superior roster. Bernier in 2014 and Reimer last year were the best goalies the Leafs have had over the past 8 years. Kessel finally had a quality linemate in Lupul, and now JVR. The defence is much better with Reilly/Gardner/Phaneuf then it was with McCabe and Komisarek and Beauchemin.

And yet the team does worse, in 2013/2014, then it did under the Wilson era. They got outshot like crazy - yes, they had some bad players on the third pairing D and fourth line forwards - but they certainly are talented enough to not get outshot like an expansion team.

That happened because of the coach, his inability to figure out that possession is good, that McClement shouldn't get 15 minutes of ice time (or significant 5v5 time), or that a failing power play meant that maybe Phaneuf or Franson should be put on different sides or SOMETHING should have been attempted.

The fact that I can figure out what ails the Leafs in under 10 minutes of time and Carlyle thinks it's "mind boggling" tells you everything you need to know about how awful a coach he is. He is terrible at evaluating quality hockey players, his systems are a joke, and he's the reason why this club is underperforming in spite of a fairly talented core.

Phaneuf is not a top guy whatsoever. He's completely overrated and is a #2 DMan. But whatever it's not worth arguing about. You Leafs fans just like to play scapegoat and throw people under the bus, when it's pretty clearly JUST YOUR TEAM who has problems with these people :lol: Carlyle on the Ducks, 6 seasons coached, 5 playoff appearances. And no the Ducks team wasn't better than the Leafs team all of those seasons. Beauchemin just awful player, terrible defenseman, leaves the Leafs, next season is 3rd in Norris voting. :lol: The Leafs problem is far from coaching and I really did wish Carlyle would get fired so that maybe you Leafs fans who are so sure that Carlyle is the problem would just shut the hell up until this time next year when you're sitting in the exact same spot and wondering why Carlyle is not a bad coach, whether he works out in Toronto or not, he's not a bad coach, if Nonis doesn't bring in players that work well on his system that's on him not Carlyle. You say he had influence on who to bring in, yet I see a defensive core that is pretty much the exact opposite of the players Carlyle likes to bring in, and an offense that's built for speed and not Carlyle's type of play, so Nonis needs to look at his roster and realize that oh shit, this roster clearly isn't going to succeed with the system we're trying to implement. Instead of signing players who actually help that cause, instead he went and signed a bottom 6 forward for top line money, a 2nd line center (at best) for a huge overpayment, and brought in zero help on the defensive side of things. So do tell me, how exactly does this help out Carlyle on the coaching side of things.

Fairly talented core is a bit of a stretch. Kessel and JVR are talented on offense, Kadri has the talent but is hot and cold, Lupul is as durable as toilet paper, Bozak is mediocre, Clarkson is awful, Kulemin is not suited for anything other than a depth role anymore. So aside from one line, on offense how exactly is this a talented core? Or maybe it's the defense you're referring to, with Phaneuf who's a good number 2 defenseman and nothing more, Gardiner who's still young and learning how to play a two way game, Reilly who was rushed entirely, Franson who turns the puck over more than just about anyone I know, Gunnarsson who's nothing more than a 2nd pairing dman, Gleason who's a good character guy.


And lastly, teams don't win because of grit? You clearly don't watch the Ducks. Considering we've had grinders on our top wing all season long, a goon 2 way dman on our top line and entirely spotty goaltending yet we finished 2nd in the league and first in the far superior Western conference. Teams with grit succeed. Teams without it get pushed around.

Thank you to My boys @Merica and @Ragnar for the lovely sigs!

Originally posted by Wadester@May 9 2014, 05:45 PM
I don't care what else you guys are talking about but if you didn't see that Colton Orr was one of the Leafs best players who gave everything in that series against Boston you either didn't watch the series or don't know hockey. The end.

The grit guys always do, they're not as talented as the others but unlike most of the guys (Like Kessel for instance who I've seen give up on a fair number of plays when things aren't going his way) with the talent, the grinders and tough guys play their hearts out every shift, and even if they're not helping their team score goals, they're absolute money for the morale. I would much much much rather have the 4th line the Ducks had when they won the cup to the one we're having now even though the 4th line now is far more skilled. Give me Brad May, Shawn Thornton, George Parros on the 4th line any day of the week.

Thank you to My boys @Merica and @Ragnar for the lovely sigs!

Rielly was not rushed.

Kyle Clifford is a grit guy and plays on the top line. Maroon on the Ducks is a top 6, I think?
Andrew Shaw, David Backes and Steve Ott for the Blues (trust me Blues will get it together soon). Iginla, Bickell, King, Prust. All have important roles on their teams.

Grit doesnt win lol look at the last few stanley cup winners. Kings big bodies all of them play physical shut down hockey. Guys like Lewis King gritty players by providing timely offense/mixed with hard shifts an grit helped alot.

Bruins once again guys like Kelly,Paille,Thorton etc. All gritter players were huge when it came playoff time.

Hawks again guys like Bolland, Bickell,Smith again guys who werent the stars but helped by working hard finishing checks playing gritty.

Pens guys like Adams (im blanking on the rest of the players atm) but again.

There isnt one team who doesnt have those gritty bottom line guys who give it there all every shift. Heck if u need more proof just look at the teams left in the playoffs each of them have gritty character players. Cant just be luck.

West Kendall

Rahotep Tutankhamun Right Wing
The Greatest Name Of All

Originally posted by Winteriscoming@May 9 2014, 07:32 PM
Grit doesnt win lol look at the last few stanley cup winners. Kings big bodies all of them play physical shut down hockey. Guys like Lewis King gritty players by providing timely offense/mixed with hard shifts an grit helped alot.

Bruins once again guys like Kelly,Paille,Thorton etc. All gritter players were huge when it came playoff time.

Hawks again guys like Bolland, Bickell,Smith again guys who werent the stars but helped by working hard finishing checks playing gritty.

Pens guys like Adams (im blanking on the rest of the players atm) but again.

There isnt one team who doesnt have those gritty bottom line guys who give it there all every shift. Heck if u need more proof just look at the teams left in the playoffs each of them have gritty character players. Cant just be luck.

Originally posted by Duey@May 9 2014, 08:29 PM
Kyle Clifford is a grit guy and plays on the top line. Maroon on the Ducks is a top 6, I think?
Andrew Shaw, David Backes and Steve Ott for the Blues (trust me Blues will get it together soon). Iginla, Bickell, King, Prust. All have important roles on their teams.

Either Maroon or Belesky is playing top line for us with the twins. So we have a grit guy on the top line about 80% of games

Thank you to My boys @Merica and @Ragnar for the lovely sigs!

^ GOOD ONE RANDY, GOOOD ONE.

Originally posted by gorlab@May 10 2014, 02:35 AM
^ GOOD ONE RANDY, GOOOD ONE.

:lol: I love that