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***39alaska39*** · 09-26-2019, 12:02 PM

09-26-2019, 11:37 AMWannabeFinn Wrote:
09-26-2019, 11:05 AM39alaska39 Wrote: How many coaches are there actually in the SHL? I think Tomas and I, McZ in Minnesota, and after that, I can’t think of any others
Idk what the number of coaches has to do with what I said. It just seems to me like the GM and coach awards are treated the same, as in they simply go to the teams with the best record and goal differentials without enough consideration given to the other aspects of being a good GM (drafting, trades, cap management) or being a good coach (getting the most out of your players compared to their TPE levels, finding line/pairing combos with great chemistry, adjusting lineups to match opponents).

I’m really not saying that any of the nominees are unreasonable, because clearly all 3 of these teams had tremendous seasons. But I think teams like NOLA are overlooked when they acquire players like Manius and Bergen and make it look easy. Teams like LAP and WKP who coached themselves to to playoff seeds when they were in tough divisions and didn’t have overly stacked rosters.

I’m mostly agreeing with you, but okay. My point being that there are so few coaches in the league, it’s a lot harder to make that distinction between good coaches and good GMs because most GMs are doing both.

But there are also arguments to be made, especially for Manhattan and New England that they are well deserved to be in both categories. Finishing outside of the playoffs in S48, and in Manhattan’s case dead last, to both teams finishing top 3 in the league in S49 shows, to me, that both teams’ management staff and coaching staff looked at what went wrong and made changes, found chemistry, or got more out of the players for their TPE level like you suggested. You mention New Orleans making trades that were good, but they also finished with a worse record this season than they did last year in S48. Were they good trades? I’d argue yes, but they also failed to improve their team given the evidence we have.

The West Kendall argument is an interesting one because you can make the exact same argument for New England or Manhattan. Each team made the playoffs in the same division as the second, third and fourth best teams in the league. If West Kendall gets credit for making the playoffs in a tough division, Manhattan and New England should get the same credit. If anything, Tampa should really get credit for surviving the bloodbath that was the Atlantic with an extremely young roster and making the playoffs.

Alex Winters (retired)
Matej Winters (retired)
Dominik Winters
S45 Jesster Trophy Winner
Challenge Cup Winning Goal Club: S52

BDonini · 09-26-2019, 12:06 PM

09-26-2019, 12:01 PM.bojo Wrote: it'd be nice to have a little writeup from some of the award staff on why they chose it who they did. people will disagree regardless, but at least the public can see why they were picked. and in extreme cases if necessary maybe even update the criteria for how to win them.

I usually do this but unfortunately I'm a little busy with school atm, might release it a little later on when I have more time.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-26-2019, 12:07 PM

09-26-2019, 12:01 PM.bojo Wrote: it'd be nice to have a little writeup from some of the award staff on why they chose it who they did. people will disagree regardless, but at least the public can see why they were picked. and in extreme cases if necessary maybe even update the criteria for how to win them.

Isn't there usually an article each season about this exact thing by Donini who is a committee member? Either way, we do have to justify our selections internally and I'm sure most of the committee members will be happy to give their thoughts on certain selections in public as well.

ArGarBarGar · 09-26-2019, 12:09 PM

09-26-2019, 12:02 PM39alaska39 Wrote:
09-26-2019, 11:37 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: Idk what the number of coaches has to do with what I said. It just seems to me like the GM and coach awards are treated the same, as in they simply go to the teams with the best record and goal differentials without enough consideration given to the other aspects of being a good GM (drafting, trades, cap management) or being a good coach (getting the most out of your players compared to their TPE levels, finding line/pairing combos with great chemistry, adjusting lineups to match opponents).

I’m really not saying that any of the nominees are unreasonable, because clearly all 3 of these teams had tremendous seasons. But I think teams like NOLA are overlooked when they acquire players like Manius and Bergen and make it look easy. Teams like LAP and WKP who coached themselves to to playoff seeds when they were in tough divisions and didn’t have overly stacked rosters.

I’m mostly agreeing with you, but okay. My point being that there are so few coaches in the league, it’s a lot harder to make that distinction between good coaches and good GMs because most GMs are doing both.

But there are also arguments to be made, especially for Manhattan and New England that they are well deserved to be in both categories. Finishing outside of the playoffs in S48, and in Manhattan’s case dead last, to both teams finishing top 3 in the league in S49 shows, to me, that both teams’ management staff and coaching staff looked at what went wrong and made changes, found chemistry, or got more out of the players for their TPE level like you suggested. You mention New Orleans making trades that were good, but they also finished with a worse record this season than they did last year in S48. Were they good trades? I’d argue yes, but they also failed to improve their team given the evidence we have.

The West Kendall argument is an interesting one because you can make the exact same argument for New England or Manhattan. Each team made the playoffs in the same division as the second, third and fourth best teams in the league. If West Kendall gets credit for making the playoffs in a tough division, Manhattan and New England should get the same credit. If anything, Tampa should really get credit for surviving the bloodbath that was the Atlantic with an extremely young roster and making the playoffs.

Okay, now that accounts for two of the three nominees.

I am not sure the argument for nominating Calgary for BOTH best GM AND best coach based on their previous couple of seasons and the season they just had.

Alonzo Garbanzo Final Tallies (Among Defensemen):
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***39alaska39*** · 09-26-2019, 12:12 PM

09-26-2019, 12:09 PMArGarBarGar Wrote:
09-26-2019, 12:02 PM39alaska39 Wrote: I’m mostly agreeing with you, but okay. My point being that there are so few coaches in the league, it’s a lot harder to make that distinction between good coaches and good GMs because most GMs are doing both.

But there are also arguments to be made, especially for Manhattan and New England that they are well deserved to be in both categories. Finishing outside of the playoffs in S48, and in Manhattan’s case dead last, to both teams finishing top 3 in the league in S49 shows, to me, that both teams’ management staff and coaching staff looked at what went wrong and made changes, found chemistry, or got more out of the players for their TPE level like you suggested. You mention New Orleans making trades that were good, but they also finished with a worse record this season than they did last year in S48. Were they good trades? I’d argue yes, but they also failed to improve their team given the evidence we have.

The West Kendall argument is an interesting one because you can make the exact same argument for New England or Manhattan. Each team made the playoffs in the same division as the second, third and fourth best teams in the league. If West Kendall gets credit for making the playoffs in a tough division, Manhattan and New England should get the same credit. If anything, Tampa should really get credit for surviving the bloodbath that was the Atlantic with an extremely young roster and making the playoffs.

Okay, now that accounts for two of the three nominees.

I am not sure the argument for nominating Calgary for BOTH best GM AND best coach based on their previous couple of seasons and the season they just had.

Hey I’ll agree with you there. Although for NHL comparison sake, Cooper got nommed for the Jack Adams even though they were widely expected to be the best team in the league (and were).

Alex Winters (retired)
Matej Winters (retired)
Dominik Winters
S45 Jesster Trophy Winner
Challenge Cup Winning Goal Club: S52

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-26-2019, 12:16 PM

Alright so this was my take on Coach and GM for example:

For GM I had Calgary, Manhattan and West Kendall. I found it pretty tough to find nominees for this category simply because there weren't a ton of trades and those teams who did make a lot of trades often didn't get great value out of it. NEW for example had a great season but they traded for Noah Konn who just retired, traded away a player who broke out this season for cheap (Herb Robert) and so on, so I didn't nominate them... Manhattan got that very same Herb Robert for cheap and had a good all-around season after a down year and CGY, even without doing much, simply dominated their conference.

For coach I went with Calgary, New England and LA. New England made the absolute most of what they had in the regular season and they won their division without a singular star skater, got a great performance out of their goalie and overall just seemed to have found a system that worked to make up for some subpar trades. LA made the playoffs when everyone expected them to tank without making many moves, so thats a coaching achievement for sure. And then I included CGY again just for their sheer dominance. Yes they are the boring choice who mostly just stayed put, but simple old success in the standing has to count for something.

***WannabeFinn*** · 09-26-2019, 12:31 PM

09-26-2019, 12:02 PM39alaska39 Wrote:
09-26-2019, 11:37 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: Idk what the number of coaches has to do with what I said. It just seems to me like the GM and coach awards are treated the same, as in they simply go to the teams with the best record and goal differentials without enough consideration given to the other aspects of being a good GM (drafting, trades, cap management) or being a good coach (getting the most out of your players compared to their TPE levels, finding line/pairing combos with great chemistry, adjusting lineups to match opponents).

I’m really not saying that any of the nominees are unreasonable, because clearly all 3 of these teams had tremendous seasons. But I think teams like NOLA are overlooked when they acquire players like Manius and Bergen and make it look easy. Teams like LAP and WKP who coached themselves to to playoff seeds when they were in tough divisions and didn’t have overly stacked rosters.

I’m mostly agreeing with you, but okay. My point being that there are so few coaches in the league, it’s a lot harder to make that distinction between good coaches and good GMs because most GMs are doing both.

Well, we just have a fundamental disagreement here. I think it’s rather easy to separate the GM from the Coach, even when the duties are performed by the same person. The jobs go hand in hand but have distinct tasks that don’t overlap.

***WannabeFinn*** · 09-26-2019, 12:32 PM

09-26-2019, 12:16 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Alright so this was my take on Coach and GM for example:

For GM I had Calgary, Manhattan and West Kendall. I found it pretty tough to find nominees for this category simply because there weren't a ton of trades and those teams who did make a lot of trades often didn't get great value out of it. NEW for example had a great season but they traded for Noah Konn who just retired, traded away a player who broke out this season for cheap (Herb Robert) and so on, so I didn't nominate them... Manhattan got that very same Herb Robert for cheap and had a good all-around season after a down year and CGY, even without doing much, simply dominated their conference.

For coach I went with Calgary, New England and LA. New England made the absolute most of what they had in the regular season and they won their division without a singular star skater, got a great performance out of their goalie and overall just seemed to have found a system that worked to make up for some subpar trades. LA made the playoffs when everyone expected them to tank without making many moves, so thats a coaching achievement for sure. And then I included CGY again just for their sheer dominance. Yes they are the boring choice who mostly just stayed put, but simple old success in the standing has to count for something.

Why are you so agreeable lately what’s going on

Flareon · 09-26-2019, 01:25 PM

I appreciate the Biscuit nom

but..

why not a Razov? Morgan lead the league in +/-. and was 1 point short of assists leader with 7 less games than them?

**.bojo** · 09-26-2019, 01:29 PM

09-26-2019, 01:25 PMFlareon Wrote: I appreciate the Biscuit nom

but..

why not a Razov? Morgan lead the league in +/-. and was 1 point short of assists leader with 7 less games than them?

you take my biscuit name and you like it

DeletedAtUserRequest · 09-26-2019, 01:33 PM

The uppercut and mckeil have to be the 2 hardest for the awards committee to nominate cause of how closely there tied into each other, I think they have done a pretty good job over the years with it.... A while ago i got a bunch of high knowledged/respected members together to discuss those 2 awards criteria. This is what they came up with.. im posting it here in hope that this helps everyone in some way with what the differentials could be between the 2 awards.

Lance Uppercut Award (Best GM)
Best GM should only be looking at the past offseason and regular season. The GM award usually goes to teams who made a strong improvement in the standings from the prior season or won the presidents trophy. the GM should be in good league standing, completed his/her off-season tasks on time to be eligible also had no suspensions, fines or major problems on the boards. Something to look at is what moves did they make or didnt make that resulted in an improvement over last season? If you can point to those moves and that team improved, they have a pretty good case.

Joe McKeil Award (Best coach)
This is a hard award to access since it relies pretty much on the GM giving you something to work with. BUT this award should go the team that had the least to work with and did well imo, it should be someone who's team ranks high in the team statistic categories, like GAA, GF, SHF, SHA. A well coached team should have a + goal differential, that means that the coach was getting productive performance on the ice from the system he/she employed. Never should a sub .500 team with a minus goal differential win this award.

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***39alaska39*** · 09-26-2019, 01:35 PM

09-26-2019, 01:25 PMFlareon Wrote: I appreciate the Biscuit nom

but..

why not a Razov? Morgan lead the league in +/-. and was 1 point short of assists leader with 7 less games than them?

A few seasons ago there was a small uproar over a losing finalist winning the playoff MVP award, so since that, there has been a concerted effort to have that not happen again

Alex Winters (retired)
Matej Winters (retired)
Dominik Winters
S45 Jesster Trophy Winner
Challenge Cup Winning Goal Club: S52

TnlAstatine · 09-26-2019, 01:45 PM

09-26-2019, 01:29 PM.bojo Wrote:
09-26-2019, 01:25 PMFlareon Wrote: I appreciate the Biscuit nom

but..

why not a Razov? Morgan lead the league in +/-. and was 1 point short of assists leader with 7 less games than them?

you take my biscuit name and you like it

can i get a biscuit?

Flareon · 09-26-2019, 01:52 PM

09-26-2019, 01:35 PM39alaska39 Wrote:
09-26-2019, 01:25 PMFlareon Wrote: I appreciate the Biscuit nom

but..

why not a Razov? Morgan lead the league in +/-. and was 1 point short of assists leader with 7 less games than them?

A few seasons ago there was a small uproar over a losing finalist winning the playoff MVP award, so since that, there has been a concerted effort to have that not happen again

I don't entirely disagree (I do a bit) but by that logic the Mexico should only go to the team who won the Presidents

Flareon · 09-26-2019, 01:52 PM

09-26-2019, 01:45 PMTnlAstatine Wrote:
09-26-2019, 01:29 PM.bojo Wrote: you take my biscuit name and you like it

can i get a biscuit?

you can have a soggy biscuit

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