10-21-2019, 12:19 AMnour Wrote: My angle isn't saying its too much effort it's that its a waste of effort (and time). If a dude wants to be there why should HO waste time pouring through applicants for a position thats going to be filled by a guy who wants to be there and has shown that he should be there? It's not too much to do, its just pointless at the end of the day. And to be fair I added it because if HO were to use this Department Head as HO idea, they would basically have to get rid of this term limit thing because all of those roles don't use a term limit system and I think it would be a waste of time to introduce them. We talk about HO having their hands full all the time and how busy they can be, why not take at least a little bit off Eggy/Adam's plate by just letting them keep the guys around who want to be around you know?
I think you're misunderstanding. If a HO member says "I wanna stay" that's enough of a re-application afaik. They don't have to go through a formal interview process again or something, and their "application" is a matter of throwing their name in the ring. Your point about term limits with regard to this new structure makes sense though, but just wanted to point out that there is not really "wasted effort" in re-applying under the current system.
Okay I didn't know that so that's fair, if it's not like a repeated full application process every time then yeah I suppose it isn't a big deal. Either way under this system it wouldn't be needed, but thanks for clearing that portion up!
10-21-2019, 08:39 AMprettyburn Wrote: I think some sort of restructuring could be useful, but have one concern - the reason we do elections currently is so that teams are represented fairly. There's nothing in job head requirements that stops people from being from the same team, so HO could potentially end up representing a handful of the same teams all the time and I feel like that would lead to even bigger shitshows than we have now. How would we avoid that?
Also, just for some fun historical context - way back in the day HO did get paid, and GMs bitched about how we didn't get paid despite putting in even more work on a regular basis than they did. Rather than pay GMs, HO decided to stop paying themselves.
I feel like from what I've been told a lot of HO members have actually tended to sit out for conversations about their own teams as to avoid letting bias show, on a large scale of a 7 team HO this would probably be easier to do, and I think as well it would be pretty rare to see a multi team representation with a bigger group. If this system was implemented right now, we'd see some pretty great representation already thanks to that bigger group. A mixture of personal accountability and the bigger group should ideally result in a system of fair representation across the board.
10-21-2019, 12:32 PMEggy216 Wrote: There aren't term limits anymore, I got rid of them. What you end up seeing, as others have mentioned, is that people just don't want to do it anymore, and I can't say I blame them. You also mention having issues with the term system in general, but what that really does is A. allow people a way out when they really just don't want to do it anymore (Evans is a recent example of this). It's also a great way for me to see if there's someone out there who might be better than who we already have, to replace someone who isn't pulling their weight without having to outright fire them, or even just to get a finger on the pulse of the SHL and see what people are thinking.
The idea of making the job heads HO is interesting in theory, but terrible in practice. Right now I end up carrying 95% of the load when it comes to the actual work, and that's the biggest issue. Current HO is trying to take some of that weight off me which is great, but making the job heads HO just makes that an even greater issue because they'd have their own jobs to worry about, and wouldn't be able to really help me out at all. It would be a step backwards rather than a step forwards in that regard.
And then the last one, paying HO, I've thought about changing that recently with the league pay restructure. In the past I've paid people for doing things that weren't really part of their HO duties, and I've debated doing something similar and paying people for working the draft, for example (in part because I ran the last one solo, and I feel like tying pay to tasks would help resolve that and the previous issue I mentioned). That also would prevent people from getting paid to do nothing. Of the suggestions you listed, that's probably the most likely to happen.
I do see what you're saying about term limits but it's good you got rid of them, people can just step down should they not want to continue anyways.
I'm sorry to say Eggy but it looks like a majority of that problem comes from you bearing that load yourself and not properly delegating. HO wouldn't have to take some of that weight off with a proper structure of who is there and why they're there. As it stands its you, adam and a council of dudes who are there because you like them. A lack of defined roles just brings about so much miscommunication and deflection of blame using ignorance. My thinking here is that having 6 other members (+ maybe an intern or two) could help release the load on EVERYONE's shoulders. As it stands now you take a hand in everything and use the rest of your team as a disciplinary committee. The structure doesn't work. This isn't even touching on the litany of communication errors that happen all the time, whether its HO and Updaters, HO and SMJHL, HO and IIHF, HO and recruitment, there's a top down problem with the way these offices stay in touch with SHL HO. Maybe you don't want to adopt this system for fear of overworking people (though I think a lot of those offices don't really do as much work as you'd think), how do you suggest we improve communications between these departments so we can avoid inactive commissioners, missed regressions, low/unengaged recruitment etc.? It's at the very least worth considering.
Glad you guys are finally decided to pay HO, its about time.
10-21-2019, 01:00 PM39alaska39 Wrote: Have we considered that term limits actually are helpful? By placing term limits on Commissioner and HO members, you limit the amount of damage that a legitimately bad Commish or HO member can do
I did try to address a counter to this in my OP by introducing the voting and veto system that would allow any one member in HO to be voted out provided they get a 5/7 vote, with available veto from the commissioner. If the commissioner is the one who is being voted out, the veto could be passed down to the co-commissioner, or up to the site owners. This system being in place could be a much faster way of dealing with problems, SMJHL HO a few seasons ago comes to mind as an instance where the voting system would greatly have improved the speed in which that department moved on.
Also I do want to point out that I agree general toxicity towards HO is a major problem that was brought up here and I agree. I think WBF was in the right to make his post because he had tried to address it through proper channels and even his TD post wasn't particularly malicious but more frustrated. But messages like the one Mack sent tagging Eggy and Leafs are obviously problems, and they happen on a far too frequent basis. I don't really have a suggestion to fix this that isn't dictator-ish haha, but I do think we as a community could better work to suppress criticism that isn't provided constructively and voice concerns and issues in a positive way
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10-21-2019, 02:06 PMEggy216 Wrote: I tried in the past and I ended up doing the work anyway because in the end they need to get done and I feel responsible if things aren't getting done in time. Like I said earlier in the thread, the current HO is revisiting it so hopefully it's being resolved.
Dude.. how long has it been like this? It would explain SO much about this league if it’s being ran by virtually a single person.
Yeah, Eggy is actually kind of a saint for putting up with a lot of y'all's nonsense.
Some members of HO have actively reached out to help over time with these matters, but the chain is always only as strong as the weakest link. Hell, in the span of a season I went from a guy telling Eggy he needed to delegate more (an opinion I had shared with him before dating back to my time in SMJHL HO) to being "Do not bother me with any of this shit I'm out."
Which kinda cycles back to the "There is no amount of fake hockey money..." post I made about a page ago, which will always be the biggest issue in getting people on board to do this job and pull their weight.
10-21-2019, 02:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Dude.. how long has it been like this? It would explain SO much about this league if it’s being ran by virtually a single person.
Yeah, Eggy is actually kind of a saint for putting up with a lot of y'all's nonsense.
Some members of HO have actively reached out to help over time with these matters, but the chain is always only as strong as the weakest link. Hell, in the span of a season I went from a guy telling Eggy he needed to delegate more (an opinion I had shared with him before dating back to my time in SMJHL HO) to being "Do not bother me with any of this shit I'm out."
Which kinda cycles back to the "There is no amount of fake hockey money..." post I made about a page ago, which will always be the biggest issue in getting people on board to do this job and pull their weight.
I do get what you're saying in that sense that in a lot of ways nothing could make it feel worth it. But you do have to admit, maybe not for yourself, but for a lot of people, getting paid would at least help. A lot of people are there doing that job out of a "love for the site" which wears thin so fast. A substantial paycheck so they could at least feel like theyre being compensated, and also not have to focus on churning out shitty media just to keep their player afloat would make a big difference at least the way i see it.
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10-21-2019, 01:18 PMEggy216 Wrote: The number one issue people have is the way people outside of HO treat them. I'd love to find a way to make the site less toxic, if you have any ideas I'm open to it.
Huge 10-4 on this. There is no amount of fake hockey money that can justify some of the bullshit you have to endure with really any job on this site and the hostility you face if you make even the slightest mistake.
10-21-2019, 02:41 PMnour Wrote: I do get what you're saying in that sense that in a lot of ways nothing could make it feel worth it. But you do have to admit, maybe not for yourself, but for a lot of people, getting paid would at least help. A lot of people are there doing that job out of a "love for the site" which wears thin so fast. A substantial paycheck so they could at least feel like theyre being compensated, and also not have to focus on churning out shitty media just to keep their player afloat would make a big difference at least the way i see it.
Definitely won't deny that, and hope one day HO will get paid. There just seems to be a lot of talk (not just regarding HO, but with all the jobs) that they should be paid "enough to make it worth their while" and I'm merely pointing out that number changes dramatically based on whether or not we are decent human beings to each other.
(Discussing what jobs should pay based on their actual workload is another conversation entirely )
10-21-2019, 02:06 PMEggy216 Wrote: I tried in the past and I ended up doing the work anyway because in the end they need to get done and I feel responsible if things aren't getting done in time. Like I said earlier in the thread, the current HO is revisiting it so hopefully it's being resolved.
Dude.. how long has it been like this? It would explain SO much about this league if it’s being ran by virtually a single person.
2 and a half years give or take?
Seriously though it comes and goes depending on who's in HO. There was an instance a few seasons back where I asked for something to be done because I was out of town, I came back the next day and there had been conversations about something completely unrelated and it had never gotten done. Unfortunately the people who are willing to help me tend to be the ones who leave because they can't deal with the toxicity, so I just keep on trucking.
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10-21-2019, 02:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Dude.. how long has it been like this? It would explain SO much about this league if it’s being ran by virtually a single person.
2 and a half years give or take?
Seriously though it comes and goes depending on who's in HO. There was an instance a few seasons back where I asked for something to be done because I was out of town, I came back the next day and there had been conversations about something completely unrelated and it had never gotten done. Unfortunately the people who are willing to help me tend to be the ones who leave because they can't deal with the toxicity, so I just keep on trucking.
This also tracks based on my previous stint. If I recall HO members were asked to do some heavy lifting for the draft one season and only one guy actually helped out.
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I will literally help anytime anyone asks me, but I just get shit on and yelled at by people who are supposed to rely on me to do my job. How does that make me want to be responsive and helpful? Again, I am always around and willing to answer questions or help, just ask, I can't take the time to read your mind or know what is going on everywhere.
I said this in GM chat, maybe it's time we work on the fractured relationship GMs and HO have with eachother. I am on my last term and not planning on remotely applying, because I woke up 3 days last week with people yelling at me, first thing in the morning. What fun it is to be in the SHL HO.
10-21-2019, 03:51 PMSDCore Wrote: I will literally help anytime anyone asks me, but I just get shit on and yelled at by people who are supposed to rely on me to do my job. How does that make me want to be responsive and helpful? Again, I am always around and willing to answer questions or help, just ask, I can't take the time to read your mind or know what is going on everywhere.
I said this in GM chat, maybe it's time we work on the fractured relationship GMs and HO have with eachother. I am on my last term and not planning on remotely applying, because I woke up 3 days last week with people yelling at me, first thing in the morning. What fun it is to be in the SHL HO.
10-21-2019, 02:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Dude.. how long has it been like this? It would explain SO much about this league if it’s being ran by virtually a single person.
2 and a half years give or take?
Seriously though it comes and goes depending on who's in HO. There was an instance a few seasons back where I asked for something to be done because I was out of town, I came back the next day and there had been conversations about something completely unrelated and it had never gotten done. Unfortunately the people who are willing to help me tend to be the ones who leave because they can't deal with the toxicity, so I just keep on trucking.
10-21-2019, 03:15 PMEggy216 Wrote: 2 and a half years give or take?
Seriously though it comes and goes depending on who's in HO. There was an instance a few seasons back where I asked for something to be done because I was out of town, I came back the next day and there had been conversations about something completely unrelated and it had never gotten done. Unfortunately the people who are willing to help me tend to be the ones who leave because they can't deal with the toxicity, so I just keep on trucking.
10-21-2019, 01:35 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: So what I’m getting from this is that for the most part you aren’t delegating tasks, or at least not a substantial amount of them.
I tried in the past and I ended up doing the work anyway because in the end they need to get done and I feel responsible if things aren't getting done in time. Like I said earlier in the thread, the current HO is revisiting it so hopefully it's being resolved.
Pay them
08-24-2018, 01:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Ah yes, the veteran meme player. A surefire bet for maybe 400 TPE
10-21-2019, 01:04 PMBaelor Swift Wrote: tl;dr I want to maintain the status quo and force people to do jobs they don't want to do rather than address why there is such a high rate of turnover
The number one issue people have is the way people outside of HO treat them. I'd love to find a way to make the site less toxic, if you have any ideas I'm open to it.
Replying to criticism with copypastas. Nice.
Let me put it in a question form. Why do you believe the best way to deal with people hating being in HO is to remove term limits and make it harder to just quit?
08-24-2018, 01:08 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: Ah yes, the veteran meme player. A surefire bet for maybe 400 TPE
10-21-2019, 02:06 PMEggy216 Wrote: I tried in the past and I ended up doing the work anyway because in the end they need to get done and I feel responsible if things aren't getting done in time. Like I said earlier in the thread, the current HO is revisiting it so hopefully it's being resolved.
Pay them
Maybe I'm just speaking for myself and maybe I was the wrong guy for the job, but it would take a full time salary to go back to any level of SHL management. No amount of SHL currency is enough
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