*this is mostly a joke*

I'm worried about no longer having @Tomen be the smartest guy in the room, as he is right now!

M'Baku Olubori || #81 || RW

Drafted 4th overall in S64 SMJHL Draft by Regina

Drafted 95th overall in S65 SHL Draft by Baltimore

Won S68 Ryan Jesster Trophy (Rookie of the Year)

Cassius Darrow || #81 || RD
-------------------------------------------
SMJHL Stats:
S44 - S46 || COL  || GP: 150 || G: 15 || A: 85 || P: 100 || +/-: +1 || SB: 195
S47 - S55 || BUF  || GP: X || G: X || A: X || P: X || +/-: X || SB: X
S56 - S63 || SEA  || GP: 0 || G: 0 || A: 0 || P: 0 || +/-: 0 || SB: 0
-------------------------------------------
Drafted 8th overall in S44 SMJHL Draft to Colorado
Co-Winner of S44 Zach Miller Trophy
Drafted 4th overall in S45 SHL Draft to Buffalo
Named S45 & S46 Captain of the Colorado Raptors
3-time Challenge Cup Champion (S46, S48, S55)
Named Assistant Captain of Buffalo Stampede S53-S55
Drafted 1st overall S56 Expansion Draft by Seattle
Named Captain of the Seattle Argonauts in S56
Bojo Biscuit Winner S57, S58

Baltimore Platoon GM || S64 - present

SHL Executioner || S62 - S65
SHL Awards Committee || S57 - S66
SHL Historian Committee || S53 - S64
SHL Head Office || S60 - S61
SMJHL Awards Head || S48 - S57
Colorado Raptors GM || S48 - S53
Colorado Raptors Co-GM || S47
Team Germany Federation Head || S44 - S46
SMJHL HO Member - S45-S46
SMJHL Head Office Intern - S44 

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Thank you karey, OrbitingDeath Ragnar, and sköldpaddor for sigs! 

I think the trepidation for a lot of people, including some of the GMs, is learning a brand new and far more complicated sim engine. I'm personally not against the move, but can understand how a long term GM that feels like they have a good handle on STHS wouldn't want to be forced into a new system. Those familiar with FHM already will have a big leg up.

Unfortunately I have always been an EHM guy so if there is a change I will have to quit the league. It’s a drag being in two leagues anyways and I’m sure the furry hockey league will appreciate my full attention.

I think the trepidation for a lot of people, including some of the GMs, is learning a brand new and far more complicated sim engine. I'm personally not against the move, but  can understand how a long term GM that feels like they have a good handle on STHS wouldn't want to be forced into a new system. Those familiar with FHM already will have a big leg up.

So I get where you are going with this but it's almost akin to saying the NHL needed to remain the goon centered league it was in the 70s becuase that's what coaches knew how to coach and new coaches who knew how to coach a more skill and speed centered game would have a leg up. Now this analogy does not entirely hold up but it is similar to the argument you are making. STHS is not a good system for what this league aims to be and FHM appears to be much more of that (see our recruitment posts and what we promise recruits they can do with their players). I think this switch will be good but we should get a hard list of pros and cons out to the community so they can see and I think cal is on that already.

I think the trepidation for a lot of people, including some of the GMs, is learning a brand new and far more complicated sim engine. I'm personally not against the move, but  can understand how a long term GM that feels like they have a good handle on STHS wouldn't want to be forced into a new system. Those familiar with FHM already will have a big leg up.

So I get where you are going with this but it's almost akin to saying the NHL needed to remain the goon centered league it was in the 70s becuase that's what coaches knew how to coach and new coaches who knew how to coach a more skill and speed centered game would have a leg up. Now this analogy does not entirely hold up but it is similar to the argument you are making. STHS is not a good system for what this league aims to be and FHM appears to be much more of that (see our recruitment posts and what we promise recruits they can do with their players). I think this switch will be good but we should get a hard list of pros and cons out to the community so they can see and I think cal is on that already.

Respectfully, that analogy is a little confused. Asking a hockey coach to adapt to a new style of play is very different from what we are asking here. This would be more akin to a rugby coach being asked to lead an NFL team. I also can’t buy anyone saying a sim we successfully used for fifty seasons to build an amazing league isn’t a good system for what this league aims to be. I’d say we have definitive proof it works well.

I just think we need to be respectful of people that have been here for years. I still think the switch is justified but we need to move slowly and carefully here and address the concerns that pop up along the way. This thread is a good step along the way.

I think the trepidation for a lot of people, including some of the GMs, is learning a brand new and far more complicated sim engine. I'm personally not against the move, but  can understand how a long term GM that feels like they have a good handle on STHS wouldn't want to be forced into a new system. Those familiar with FHM already will have a big leg up.

You're definitely right there. We're working on getting together as much information as possible to help everyone, players and GMs, get up to speed on FHM. People like DrunkenTeddy who have been messing around with FHM for years have a leg up for sure. All that said Teddy will admit himself that some things work for certain teams and they don't work for others. So maybe he'll know what won't work, but he won't necessarily know what will with the Steelhawks.

I think about 95% of us will all be in the same boat for this. He might know what works in his FHM management leagues, but sim leagues are a different beast.

Your worry is valid, but I think we're all starting from a new place together for the most part.

Cal Juice
Tomas Zadina
Brady McIntyre

Unfortunately I have always been an EHM guy so if there is a change I will have to quit the league. It’s a drag being in two leagues anyways and I’m sure the furry hockey league will appreciate my full attention.

Why must the good die young???

Cal Juice
Tomas Zadina
Brady McIntyre

i feel like the same problem with happen with STHS, someone will find a really strong strategy that just outweighs using everything else.

Player Page

i feel like the same problem with happen with STHS, someone will find a really strong strategy that just outweighs using everything else.

Is that what happened though? We found that only 3 or 4 attributes effect the sim positively with STHS. I would bet there's an OP strategy or attribute, but you still need to be a good skater in FHM to get points and your role defines your play style not an algorithm.

We could find an OP strat but we didn't find one in STHS, we realized the sim was broken.

Cal Juice
Tomas Zadina
Brady McIntyre

I'm definitely one of the people who are quite sceptical and conservative when it comes to big changes like this one. And it's not because I think FHM won't be good, it will likely be way better than STHS, it's because I'm worried that we won't be able to survive the change. That's not a slight against the transition team either as there are some very capable and dedicated people on it, but there are many factors and risks attached to a sim change that are basically outside of human control.

There might be gamebreaking issues and bugs that don't show up right away no matter how much testing is done. The same goes for non-gamebreaking balancing issues that make things less fun and that might not show up until the mid- to long-term either. People essentially broke STHS by understanding it too well, just the same might happen with FHM once people start putting the same amount of research into it. And then there is smaller stuff like the downtime and skill-transition that come with the change itself, the inconsistencies in record keeping, the new entry barriers we create by using a commercial product, the exportability and displayability of stats and results and so on...

People joined the SHL with certain expectations and fell in love with it and stayed for their own specific reasons. After such a drastic engine change it won't be the league that they originally signed up for anymore, who knows how this will impact their motivation. It's kinda hard to put into words but I think this might actually be the most important argument/risk. Just think of people who fall in love with certain video games or other works of fiction and can never warm up to the eventual sequel or remake, even if it is objectively better.

Changing engines in an existing league is a whole different beast than starting a new one on a new engine. The SHL is a behemoth for better and for worse, it comes with the benefit of a large and dedicated userbase while also being inflexible not for a lack of trying from the people involved, but for the many interconnected systems that are already in place (TPE, builds, PTs, media, contracts...). We don't just carry over our large user base, but a huge amount of baggage as well.

A new sim comes with new opportunities but I think that people underestimate the risk that comes with such a radical change to such an entrenched system. I would argue that there is about a 50-50 chance that this flat out kills the league. It could work out and if it does, the SHL will be better than it is now - but the failure risk is huge and so are the consequences. If we fail with this than the consequences won't just be a dip in activity and a few weaker draft classes, but the end of the league or it's shrinking to a much smaller size.

The thing that drew me in and kept me on SHL was not the sim engine - it's the people.  Keep that and you'll keep us around.

I think this is a key point. People might have signed up because of the game itself, but most of them stayed because of the community (luckily the community should still be the same even after an engine change).

When someone new join the league, I think STHS actually is a somewhat positive factor for us as it is quite a good starting point that is simple and easy to understand. Its serious flaws don't become apparent until later, when the community aspect has hopefully drawn people in enough to make them stay regardless. Obviously this isn't perfect but FHM might basically face us with the opposite situation: A quite severe entry barrier with a bigger pay-off later. But who knows how many people will get to that pay-off when many won't survive the start or don't even sign up in the first place, because everything becomes more complicated and progress slows down. Which kinda brings me back to my "expectations" point because in some aspects the league might become the polar opposite of what it is today. This might actually make the product as a whole better but it would be very different from the one that people signed up for originally, with new strengths and weaknesses.

I'm definitely one of the people who are quite sceptical and conservative when it comes to big changes like this one. And it's not because I think FHM won't be good, it will likely be way better than STHS, it's because I'm worried that we won't be able to survive the change. That's not a slight against the transition team either as there are some very capable and dedicated people on it, but there are many factors and risks attached to a sim change that are basically outside of human control.

The fact is that a change needs to happen. That change is either update scale restrictions (PA and SC have to be within 20 points of each other is the band aid we're using now which further restricts people's build diversity) or moving to a new engine. So I'm not sure what to say here, but the current iteration of SHL and STHS are incompatible.

There might be gamebreaking issues and bugs that don't show up right away no matter how much testing is done. The same goes for non-gamebreaking balancing issues that make things less fun and that might not show up until the mid- to long-term either. People essentially broke STHS by understanding it too well, just the same might happen with FHM once people start putting the same amount of research into it. And then there is smaller stuff like the downtime and skill-transition that come with the change itself, the inconsistencies in record keeping, the new entry barriers we create by using a commercial product, the exportability and displayability of stats and results and so on...

If we can go another 50 seasons before someone breaks FHM then we worry about it down the line in my opinion. However the issues you're bringing up have been resolved:
1. Inconsistencies in record keeping - We store all of our records on the site since seasons are disjointed. As is clearly displayed there have been different eras in SHL where changes in STHS or the site have created a big enough change to make the distinction between eras. With the sliders in FHM we can keep stats as close as possible but if they're too different we can create another era. We're changing as little as possible though. 50 game seasons, backups play a minimum of 6(?) games. Etc. Records will still be recorded on the site like normal, none of the old indexes are going to disappear and we're going to have indexes for FHM just like we do for STHS.
2. Commercial Product - STHS is a commercial product and GMs don't need FHM to submit lines just like we use now.
3. Exportability of Stats and Results - @esilverm is working on the index, I'm working on individual game box scores. This problem has already been solved and we'll have the solution visually available before the move.

People joined the SHL with certain expectations and fell in love with it and stayed for their own specific reasons. After such a drastic engine change it won't be the league that they originally signed up for anymore, who knows how this will impact their motivation. It's kinda hard to put into words but I think this might actually be the most important argument/risk. Just think of people who fall in love with certain video games or other works of fiction and can never warm up to the eventual sequel or remake, even if it is objectively better.

I think everyone came into the SHL hoping to create a player of their own. Just watch the promotional video we all saw in our inbox when we first started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW4Ha_bk...e=emb_logo . Sniper, power forward, offensive defenseman, defensive defenseman. It's all a sham. The only difference between my build and my teammate's builds are that we have different levels of TPE. Our peak builds are all the same. We got sold essentially a bit of a lie and stayed because we made friends. This gives us the real opportunity for the experience we signed up for. I get what you're saying, change is hard for some. But if we can have our friends and the individual experience we're all craving I see no downside there.

Changing engines in an existing league is a whole different beast than starting a new one on a new engine. The SHL is a behemoth for better and for worse, it comes with the benefit of a large and dedicated userbase while also being inflexible not for a lack of trying from the people involved, but for the many interconnected systems that are already in place (TPE, builds, PTs, media, contracts...). We don't just carry over our large user base, but a huge amount of baggage as well.

The only thing that's changing here is the update scale and builds. TPE numbers, media, contracts, PTs, etc. are all staying the same. The only thing that's really going to change for the average user is that you'll have different attributes and a new index. If you're a GM you'll update lines differently and if you're an updater you'll go back to using spreadsheets. The SHL is a community that we aren't planning on uprooting. We're just changed the sim engine, not all of this other stuff.

A new sim comes with new opportunities but I think that people underestimate the risk that comes with such a radical change to such an entrenched system. I would argue that there is about a 50-50 chance that this flat out kills the league. It could work out and if it does, the SHL will be better than it is now - but the failure risk is huge and so are the consequences. If we fail with this than the consequences won't just be a dip in activity and a few weaker draft classes, but the end of the league or it's shrinking to a much smaller size.

STHS is broken. Maybe you're right that there's a 50-50 chance we die if we move (I disagree but I'll play along), but there is a 100% chance SHL dies with STHS. The SHL can't continue with this broken sim where SC, PH, DF and EN are the only stats that improve your player. It's broken, there's no other way to put it. I think it's important to point out how positively so many people have reacted to this. Members are talking about coming back from inactivity because this is such a ground breaking change for hockey sim leagues. VHL and GOMHL still exist for those that for some reason want STHS, but we're going to see members come to SHL from there because of how exciting this is.

Cal Juice
Tomas Zadina
Brady McIntyre

@RomanesEuntDomus I think I should also say, this isn't being rushed. We're hoping to have it ready for S52 with an extended offseason but if need be we can wait until S53. We're being really cautious with all of this to make sure it's done right.

Cal Juice
Tomas Zadina
Brady McIntyre

Now this is a legitimate problem.

STHS currently requires a subscription so there is a fee involved in getting started regardless. WJC is supposed to be for exposing people to management positions in general and to the IIHF. FHM 6 goes on sale on Friday so if you're planning on managing it'd be a good time to buy it then. The nice thing is that if you look at old versions of FHM the price is cheaper. FHM 3/4/5 are all 20 dollars each so we can expect FHM 6 to move to 20 dollars after FHM 7 comes out. Considering it's a yearly release we can expect this to happen with FHM 6 in less than a year. Since STHS is 17 dollars Canadian I think the improvement after the price drop will be worth the increased cost's tradeoff.

When it comes to complexity, it's going to be up to us to make good tutorials and put information on the site to help each other and rookies get started.

STHS does not require a subscription to submit lines, FHM does if you're using the application for that.

There is however a lines and tactics template supplied by OOTP that we can use for GMs not wishing to buy the game:
It's about the 5th or 6th tab in this doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...=355821563

thx for the link! saved for my bookmarks :D

Challenge Cup Wins:
S18 - Seattle Riot (with Chris McZehrl)*
S23 - New England Wolfpack (with Chris McZehrl)*
S27 - Calgary Dragons (with VLAD McZehrl)
S34 - Manhattan Rage (with VLAD McZehrl)
S37 - Winnipeg Jets (with VLAD McZehrl)
S46 - Buffalo Stampede (with GOD McZehrl)*

*first ever Challenge Cup of Franchise History

Four Star Cup Wins:
S24 - Vancouver Whalers (with VLAD McZehrl)
S39 - St. Louis Scarecrows (with GOD McZehrl)

SHL Hall of Fame Members:
S24 - Chris McZehrl *
(GP: 764 | G: 322 | A: 461 | P: 783 | +/-: +109)
S40 - VLAD McZehrl *
(GP: 653 | G: 333 | A: 361 | P: 694 | +/-: +141)

*1st Ballot Hall of Famer

small note: GOD McZehrl played at first as Defender and later as Forward!

@RomanesEuntDomus I think I should also say, this isn't being rushed. We're hoping to have it ready for S52 with an extended offseason but if need be we can wait until S53. We're being really cautious with all of this to make sure it's done right.

better 2 seasons with STHS than one season to early with FHM! that is what I meant with many tests and so on! take the time to kill all the scepsis!

Challenge Cup Wins:
S18 - Seattle Riot (with Chris McZehrl)*
S23 - New England Wolfpack (with Chris McZehrl)*
S27 - Calgary Dragons (with VLAD McZehrl)
S34 - Manhattan Rage (with VLAD McZehrl)
S37 - Winnipeg Jets (with VLAD McZehrl)
S46 - Buffalo Stampede (with GOD McZehrl)*

*first ever Challenge Cup of Franchise History

Four Star Cup Wins:
S24 - Vancouver Whalers (with VLAD McZehrl)
S39 - St. Louis Scarecrows (with GOD McZehrl)

SHL Hall of Fame Members:
S24 - Chris McZehrl *
(GP: 764 | G: 322 | A: 461 | P: 783 | +/-: +109)
S40 - VLAD McZehrl *
(GP: 653 | G: 333 | A: 361 | P: 694 | +/-: +141)

*1st Ballot Hall of Famer

small note: GOD McZehrl played at first as Defender and later as Forward!