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SHL Summit Meeting: HO
#16
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2020, 06:25 PM by Slappydoodle.)

01-02-2020, 06:01 PMSDCore Wrote: I was merely responding in kind with my thoughts, sorry if they differ from yours. I was merely commenting about how we had some of those systems in place and how rants about how HO sucks, is a bigger issue.


Having been in HO, I think the idea of designating one group of members for site development, one group for oversight of department heads and one for disciplinary issues might just be a great idea. I know every time we were talking about something, a shitstorm would erupt and everything would get derailed. It’s always either a disciplinary / cheating issue or a missed regression/ updating problem that fucks stuff up. Probably help everyone to have dedicated people in those areas.

Term limits are probably not helpful. Good people that want to do it should be allowed to. There should be a mechanism for removing people that are no longer contributing due to burnout / real life etc though

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#17

01-02-2020, 04:42 PMMike Izzy Wrote:
01-02-2020, 04:39 PMSegi Wrote: Assuming we have enough members motivated to serve their term, HO will probably get more efficient, I agree. But there is still stuff that's not possible to get completed within a single season. Sure the sim engine transition is an extreme example the proportion of which we hopefully won't see again so soon. But even something like the reintroduction of the SMJHL budget takes more than a season, no matter how efficient the team behind it is. First you need to draft up the general idea, then you need to figure out what aspects of the league it will influence and in what ways. Then you need to write the rule book section for it. Then you can present what you have to the GMs who then need time to figure out what the hell HO's been doing so far to be able to give feedback from their point of view. There's no way all this can get done in a single season, even if ther weren't any distractions.


you being in HO, i think you do have a insight to it that brings ++ to this portion of the topic. so perhaps the 1 in and 1 out isnt the best option, but the need to shield and monitor burnout from our HO members is important IMO.. not everyone has the same start and end points with stress levels.. so maybe theres a better idea then mine with the 3 term modifications to help them.

any ideas segi?

You'd certainly need members to be on for consecutive seasons, to guarantee some continuity. Maybe 2 on - 1 off - 2 on or something in that order. In any case, you want people staying on a certain project for more than a season.

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#18

Btw... I think I may have not explained my thoughts on term limits well. After 3 seasons that member can reapply in the same way they do now.. the premise was just giving them a break in between to refocus and regroup eh

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#19

01-02-2020, 06:24 PMSlappydoodle Wrote:
01-02-2020, 06:01 PMSDCore Wrote: I was merely responding in kind with my thoughts, sorry if they differ from yours. I was merely commenting about how we had some of those systems in place and how rants about how HO sucks, is a bigger issue.


Having been in HO, I think the idea of designating one group of members for site development, one group for oversight of department heads and one for disciplinary issues might just be a great idea. I know every time we were talking about something, a shitstorm would erupt and everything would get derailed. It’s always either a disciplinary / cheating issue or a missed regression/ updating problem that fucks stuff up. Probably help everyone to have dedicated people in those areas.

Term limits are probably not helpful. Good people that want to do it should be allowed to. There should be a mechanism for removing people that are no longer contributing due to burnout / real life etc though

We attempted to do this I think when you were in HO, but it never panned out. We are hopefully going to implement some oversight members to specific departments, but we were busy at the beginning and middle of the season with STHS/FHM stuff and then the off season is a load of work.

We were thinking of giving every member of HO a job and tasks they need to complete by years end. This would be a way to include pay for HO member, kind of like a bounty. This would also create some accountability for all HO members. It would also take some of the stress and responsibility off of Eggy and My plates.

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#20

01-02-2020, 06:33 PMSDCore Wrote: We were thinking of giving every member of HO a job and tasks they need to complete by years end. This would be a way to include pay for HO member, kind of like a bounty. This would also create some accountability for all HO members.
I like this

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#21

01-02-2020, 05:49 PMMike Izzy Wrote:
01-02-2020, 05:41 PMSDCore Wrote: So, I know you are trying your best, but I think there are bigger problems than what you see.

HO term limits don't work. In fact if we had strict term limits, I would no longer be allowed in HO and neither would Eggy. The biggest problem in being in HO are our users asking and demanding the world out of us. I personally field questions, comments, concerns, and general things at all hours of the day. We get yelled at, bitched at, asked about rules, for no pay. Izzy you have brought up this topic about how HO isn't working 6 times to me in the best 2 weeks. You think this is fair for us? Burn out happens because of the unreasonable demands put on us by our users. I know I'm going to get flak for this, but it's true. At any given moment I will have someone asking me something or to do something or respond to something.

Have you noticed how no other HO members comment on things like this? It's because it's exhausting and looks like hate directed at our job. Again, I know you are just trying to help, but to post a long thing about how HO is not working does nothing good for the morale of those users or for us trying to bring in better users to the position.

That being said I will respond to some of your comments.

Code:
1. Time to split HO into distinct segments:
Having someone in charge of creative thinking for new ideas, implementations and modifications, disciplinary issues, site problems, discussion topics.. Its too much! and from what I hear it has hindered the process... there's a ton of discussion topics in HO and most of them just stall out cause its all to big. Lets split HO into segments where those people are responsible for those specific issues.

- Think tank: a group that listens to what's being asked on the site, what other sites are doing, searches and finds ways to make things better here ... If something gets agreed upon, have this dept bring it up in a monthly roundup post to the league ... See if any of it gains traction, if it does then they should be allowed to create groups with members who can make it happen.

- Quality Assurance: People who are in charge of maintaining the site on a day to day basis by coordinating with different departments to tackle a variety of issues. they will be the glue of HO that plays an intermediate role...Hardware problems on the site, Individual issues from members this group can be the goto people on how to tackle the issue.

- General: This can be a segment that addresses anything that doesn't fall in the above and a group that can help float within the segments to help or to cover for those that need a break.

"Think Tank": Didn't you try to do this with PT? How successful was it? Think tank about what? We currently crowd source all of our ideas and things to make the league better with all head jobs. I am in constant contact with PT Head, Graphics Head, shouldn't we be using these people for this, instead of hiring new people (who won't get paid cause it's HO).

"QA": This falls on HO and our site maintenance team. This is another group of individuals who make sure the site doesn't go down, fix site issues, do the behind the scenes work. This is something that exists already, but it isn't well known.

Code:
Term limit modification:
When a member gets added to 1 of the groups above they agree to a 3 season assignment. 1 season on, then 1 season off then 1 season on. So in the 3 seasons they work 2 of the 3 with a burnout season break in between. With these jobs on the site youd be surprised how far a month of peace and quiet goes in regrouping and finding that fire within again.

This usually works it self out. We need more active members in HO and we need our members on the site to be nice to these people so they are better at their jobs and they keep them. Most people burnout because they are getting yelled at or asked to do things that are a bit unreasonable.

Code:
2.Take Disciplinary issues away from HO.
By all accounts this seems to be the biggest issue for site burnout and from what I've seen a good HO shitstorm cripples HO from anything else that needs to be done for a while. Its time to separate this part from HO and allow the others to be able to do there job. But how we do this correctly is complicated. Here's what I suggest:

- Team Ambassador's: Lets start with trying to resolve smaller problems before they reach HO. Things like member to member issues, team to team problems or teams to HO.. Things that can quickly escalate into big problems on the site. Lets have each team designate 1 ambassador (perhaps someone willing to talk, compromise etc) who a member can contact, teams ambassadors can discuss with each other and or a group of ambassador's that can talk with HO.. I believe having that type of firewall can go along way in keeping our horses in HO fresh.

- Diverse group with 1 common thread: If we want this area to be fair then we need to try and  bring in all representations of the site. From OG's to new engaged members, from those that like shitstorms and hoopla to those that don’t.. members from teams that typically have not gotten along with each other from hamilton to TBB members, from Buffalo dudes to Calgary guys...etc. Everyone needs to feel represented so when a ruling goes down there will be a general feeling that it was done
with some inherant fairness. i feel like this is super important.

- Disiplinary account: With a diverse group above, let this department create a displinary account name to give a member in this department the option of posting on there own name or with that account...this would stop half the site from shitting on the person that made the post or wants to respond to questions but dont want the hassle of being shitted on... and it would give this group a bit of shielding which may have more people in this group willing to give us deep information on there rulings and answer questions from the site on these rulings. If we all agree not to harrass anyone that uses this account, this would be a great add.

Team Ambassadors : These are the GMs. The GMs tend to know more of what's going on and have a direct line to all of HO. They need to step up and communicate more with their locker rooms and such, IF YOU think this is a big issues. Right now I have no problem with how the GMs operate. We have GMs discord for this very reason.

Diverse group: I have no idea what you mean by this. This site is voluntary, most people who don't get along, won't get along in a group chat. You can't force people to be nice to eachother, I've tried. We try to be as impartial and fair as possible, but with most discipline someone is going to hate the result. This is not a 100% perfect thing, you are never going to get it right, sorry it's just the reality. People are naturally going to think bias exists, they do, you do, don't claim you or anyone doesn't.

Disciplinary account: We do not want some anonymous voice from the sky making a ruling, this would just heap more shit on HO for being secret or private. It would look like we have even more bias. Also, having one shared account with site privileges is never a good idea, in my opinion.

Again, I am just pointing out my perspective. You also seem to think owners have more influence on the site than they do. Most of them probably don't know who I am, sans Leaf and Tez. Members leave, members join, that is both a good and bad thing.

Anyway... Those are my thoughts.


Sdcore, we don’t know each other well, the accasional here and there... from all I hear your a really dedicated member who works his ass off... I appreciate that!  but I wish you wouldn’t take everything said to heart and get so defensive... every encounter we have starts with you thinking I’m about to punch your wife lol...why make a 500 word response kicking every thing I wrote? u did the same thing with slappys post... I’m not calling u or anyone out here... im bringing up ideas about the system in place bro.....we all have ideas here... you don’t have a monopoly on them. Smile
I don’t think he ment to be defensive. Was mearly giving his perspective. I think something that could be helpful would be a couple more members. As more people come to the site, there is more to handle. We have undergone multiple expansions and SHL HO has never increased. SMJHL HO increased to two interns back in 46. Now they have even more work than in the past. Those two are a blessing to have some working hands doing small tasks and helping out with “housekeeping”. I agree with @CementHands that it can be very difficult to assign roles when it is a small group. That being said, it still happens. Every project has an element of who does what. However, for the most part it needs to be a collective effort. What makes a good HO member is someone who doesn’t need to be told what to do. A self motivator. Yes, people need guidance. That’s why you have me, Corey, and eggy. But we should be able to trust that they can handle the day to day operations. Maybe a rolls idea can work with a bigger group, but until then. Anyway, I’ll get off my soap box.

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#22

Mostly against some of the first ideas, but separation of powers is a major thing that has happened in the past and should come back

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#23

So I have seen a lot of the same people posting and figured I'd chime in with my two cents. I will acknowledge what you all already know, I am naive to how SHL actually works and have no experience with it whatsoever.

That said, I actually like the idea of compartmentalizing at least the disciplinary portion of HO responsibilities. I think something like a disciplinary board headed by HO or a "sheriff" and comprised of several SHL members from outside of HO might aid transparency and help alleviate the hate and vitriol that encompasses 80% of responses to HO disciplinary decisions. I totally understand that HO will not and should not abrogate their disciplinary responsibility but I think some trusted inclusion might serve wonders for HO's work load and ability to not get burned out.

You may now tie me to the post and flagellate me for saying something. Don't worry, I'll enjoy it.

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#24
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2020, 12:11 AM by DeletedAtUserRequest.)

01-02-2020, 04:21 PMDrunkenTeddy Wrote: The term limit is pretty dumb, if someone dedicates the time to the site to be considered a great HO member for 2 whole terms why are we stopping them from continuing?

Hi @DrunkenTeddy --> they wouldnt have to stop... if they want to re-up and continue on for another 3 seasons they should be able to. but in this idea they would be given some time off within those 3 seasons and not work 6 straight months.. its a way of keeping everyone fresh and engaged in a stressful job on this site.

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#25

01-02-2020, 08:34 PMFinnRhys Wrote: I will acknowledge what you all already know, I am naive to how SHL actually works and have no experience with it whatsoever.

I usually prefer to stay out of these discussions, partly because of this above as well. I just prefer not to get involved too much with how the league is run, because I know it'll eat up too much of my time, so that's a deliberate decision.

However, just a random idea from my side:

Since many of the new members - or those like myself that just try to stay out of the whole trouble - often don't really know what's going on behind the scenes, would something like a regular short 'newsletter' type of post from HO be a good idea? Just so that people know what's actually going on at the moment or is being worked on without giving too many details? Only if there is something worth posting obviously. Perhaps this already exists or might not work for whatever reason, then just ignore the idea. Apart from that I agree with most of what @SDCore said already Smile

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#26
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2020, 05:00 AM by Henrik.)

01-03-2020, 02:10 AMCarpy48 Wrote:
01-02-2020, 08:34 PMFinnRhys Wrote: I will acknowledge what you all already know, I am naive to how SHL actually works and have no experience with it whatsoever.

I usually prefer to stay out of these discussions, partly because of this above as well. I just prefer not to get involved too much with how the league is run, because I know it'll eat up too much of my time, so that's a deliberate decision.

However, just a random idea from my side:

Since many of the new members - or those like myself that just try to stay out of the whole trouble - often don't really know what's going on behind the scenes, would something like a regular short 'newsletter' type of post from HO be a good idea? Just so that people know what's actually going on at the moment or is being worked on without giving too many details? Only if there is something worth posting obviously. Perhaps this already exists or might not work for whatever reason, then just ignore the idea. Apart from that I agree with most of what @SDCore said already Smile


We are basically in the same boat as I had a similar idea after finishing my internship in the SMJHL HO. I think most of the negativity and pushback from users comes from A) lack of understanding of what goes into the work and decision-making that HO does, and B) insufficient lines of communication which leads to a feeling of 'us vs them'.

I was going to suggest the creation of a 'head of communications' as well as a couple of mediators to work alongside the HO, basically bridging HO and the general site member. They would be responsible for a newsletter type article every now and then as well as mediating issues between members to the HO and vice versa. They would also break news on things like disciplinary actions, expansions, rules changes etc.

I'm also 100% for having more interns in the HO. Gives people a new perspective on the work that is done and it can alleviate the stress and workload that the HO faces. At the end of the day we all do this because we enjoy it, but when a game or hobby goes from being just a fun thing we do to relax to being a chore it can become toxic real quick. Atleast in my opinion. So, again, I would just like to advocate for sharing the workload.


Kinda OT but..

I also think it's important to be respectful to other members of this community and I see a lot of shit being thrown for next to no reason as well as some 'ganging up' happening in certain threads. While I think that it's important that everyone has a chance to express themselves freely, attacking other users outside of the Thunderdome isn't kosher. A little bit of empathy and compassion would go a long way.

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