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Carbine · 01-23-2020, 07:54 PM

Considering SMJHL HO got the facts wrong on the STL trade discussion to begin with, I definitely think a third party should have a look at it.

nykonax · 01-23-2020, 07:55 PM

01-23-2020, 07:54 PMVelevra Wrote: I generally stay out of these 99.9 % of the time… I’m not going to comment on what I think an appropriate ruling should be due to my inherent biases. But as someone who is a former SMJHL Head Commissioner, former SHL Advisor (Head Office Member), and current IIHF Commissioner, I do want to voice serious concern in regards to how this has been handled.

It took me a decent amount of time to go through the evidence laid out by the SMJHL HO as well as the extensive appeal made by BDonini which is several pages long to fully grasp the situation. After doing this, I have two large concerns regarding the process utilized by the SMJHL HO.

1) Reaching a verdict without talking to all parties involved: For me it is hard to fathom that an initial ruling was made without reaching out to all parties involved for information. Imagine a judge rendering a verdict on a case before the defendant has had a chance to present their evidence.

2) Time before a decision was made both initially and on the appeal: The SMJHL HO says that the initial decision was made in “10-12 hours”. The time between BDonini’s appeal and the SMJHL HO’s response was less than 12 hours (I imagine many of these hours were probably spent sleeping for North American members of the HO). Like I said, it took me a good amount of time to read through all the information available. It is hard for me to fathom that a good review of BDonini’s appeal was done by all members of the SMJHL HO within this time period, let alone a productive discussion on the points he raised.

I sincerely hope that going forward, these issues can be rectified for any future punishment situations that may arise.

Yeah I don't know how HO made a good decision when they were discussing this appeal in either the late night or early morning

SlashACM · 01-23-2020, 08:05 PM

01-23-2020, 07:55 PMnykonax Wrote:
01-23-2020, 07:54 PMVelevra Wrote: I generally stay out of these 99.9 % of the time… I’m not going to comment on what I think an appropriate ruling should be due to my inherent biases. But as someone who is a former SMJHL Head Commissioner, former SHL Advisor (Head Office Member), and current IIHF Commissioner, I do want to voice serious concern in regards to how this has been handled.

It took me a decent amount of time to go through the evidence laid out by the SMJHL HO as well as the extensive appeal made by BDonini which is several pages long to fully grasp the situation. After doing this, I have two large concerns regarding the process utilized by the SMJHL HO.

1) Reaching a verdict without talking to all parties involved: For me it is hard to fathom that an initial ruling was made without reaching out to all parties involved for information. Imagine a judge rendering a verdict on a case before the defendant has had a chance to present their evidence.

2) Time before a decision was made both initially and on the appeal: The SMJHL HO says that the initial decision was made in “10-12 hours”. The time between BDonini’s appeal and the SMJHL HO’s response was less than 12 hours (I imagine many of these hours were probably spent sleeping for North American members of the HO). Like I said, it took me a good amount of time to read through all the information available. It is hard for me to fathom that a good review of BDonini’s appeal was done by all members of the SMJHL HO within this time period, let alone a productive discussion on the points he raised.

I sincerely hope that going forward, these issues can be rectified for any future punishment situations that may arise.
Yeah I don't know how HO made a good decision when they were discussing this appeal in either the late night or early morning

I make all my best decisions at night, especially when horny

*Leppish* · 01-23-2020, 09:05 PM

Shouldn't this be in SMJHL media btw.

Slappydoodle · 01-23-2020, 09:26 PM

01-23-2020, 07:54 PMVelevra Wrote: 1) Reaching a verdict without talking to all parties involved: For me it is hard to fathom that an initial ruling was made without reaching out to all parties involved for information. Imagine a judge rendering a verdict on a case before the defendant has had a chance to present their evidence.

2) Time before a decision was made both initially and on the appeal: The SMJHL HO says that the initial decision was made in “10-12 hours”. The time between BDonini’s appeal and the SMJHL HO’s response was less than 12 hours (I imagine many of these hours were probably spent sleeping for North American members of the HO). Like I said, it took me a good amount of time to read through all the information available. It is hard for me to fathom that a good review of BDonini’s appeal was done by all members of the SMJHL HO within this time period, let alone a productive discussion on the points he raised.

These are both excellent points. Point 1 in particular is both shocking and disturbing

***JKortesi81*** · 01-23-2020, 09:50 PM

I'm not going to touch on the final rulings here, but i will touch on one thing.

If anyone thinks that SMJHL HO just blew this off and didn't give this enough time, you couldn't be more wrong. The entire HO (And at times, Eggy and SD) spent a LOT of time discussing and debating this scenario yesterday, and today after the appeal was made. There were like 1400 messages over the first few hours alone, complete with input from every single member of HO.

If you want to debate the initial punishment and the ensuing lesser punishment from the appeal, be my guest, that's your right and everyone will have a different opinion on the matter. But I refuse to let the character of the Head Office members come into question based on your own personal opinions of how long anything "should" have taken. Believe me, this was taken incredibly seriously by everyone, and the last two days were dedicated to constant communication from everyone about the matter. Everyone in the Head Office cares about the league and takes this job seriously. Just because outsiders feel that enough time wasn't taken on the matter doesn't mean that it wasn't.

Thanks.

nykonax · 01-23-2020, 10:27 PM

01-23-2020, 09:50 PMJKortesi81 Wrote: I'm not going to touch on the final rulings here, but i will touch on one thing.

If anyone thinks that SMJHL HO just blew this off and didn't give this enough time, you couldn't be more wrong. The entire HO (And at times, Eggy and SD) spent a LOT of time discussing and debating this scenario yesterday, and today after the appeal was made. There were like 1400 messages over the first few hours alone, complete with input from every single member of HO.

If you want to debate the initial punishment and the ensuing lesser punishment from the appeal, be my guest, that's your right and everyone will have a different opinion on the matter. But I refuse to let the character of the Head Office members come into question based on your own personal opinions of how long anything "should" have taken. Believe me, this was taken incredibly seriously by everyone, and the last two days were dedicated to constant communication from everyone about the matter. Everyone in the Head Office cares about the league and takes this job seriously. Just because outsiders feel that enough time wasn't taken on the matter doesn't mean that it wasn't.

Thanks.

1400 messages over the first few hours of when actual evidence was posted? or of the appeal? I find it hard to believe you spent a lot of time in the 12 hours between 2am and 2pm est, which is probably even earlier for some HO members.

***JKortesi81*** · 01-23-2020, 10:54 PM

01-23-2020, 10:27 PMnykonax Wrote:
01-23-2020, 09:50 PMJKortesi81 Wrote: I'm not going to touch on the final rulings here, but i will touch on one thing.

If anyone thinks that SMJHL HO just blew this off and didn't give this enough time, you couldn't be more wrong. The entire HO (And at times, Eggy and SD) spent a LOT of time discussing and debating this scenario yesterday, and today after the appeal was made. There were like 1400 messages over the first few hours alone, complete with input from every single member of HO.

If you want to debate the initial punishment and the ensuing lesser punishment from the appeal, be my guest, that's your right and everyone will have a different opinion on the matter. But I refuse to let the character of the Head Office members come into question based on your own personal opinions of how long anything "should" have taken. Believe me, this was taken incredibly seriously by everyone, and the last two days were dedicated to constant communication from everyone about the matter. Everyone in the Head Office cares about the league and takes this job seriously. Just because outsiders feel that enough time wasn't taken on the matter doesn't mean that it wasn't.

Thanks.
1400 messages over the first few hours of when actual evidence was posted? or of the appeal? I find it hard to believe you spent a lot of time in the 12 hours between 2am and 2pm est, which is probably even earlier for some HO members.

That’s my point: I don’t care what you or others find “hard to believe”. Im telling you what actually happened. Not speculation. If you choose to get bothered by your own assumptions and opinions as opposed to what did happen, go nuts. That’s not our problem.

Personally, I read the appeal not long after it sent, as I worked until 2am and was awake for a while after. Others started talking about it as early as 4:00am. When I woke up to get ready for regular work (I work two jobs) at 7:30ish, everyone in HO had already commented and were discussing the appeal, and it continued nonstop until the appeal decision post.

That’s really more than i need to tell you though. But just proving the point that assumptions get you nowhere.

jRuutu · 01-24-2020, 08:34 AM

Several pages long appeal? Puhhleeeeaaase. Like has been said, if you really wanted to clear the mess up you would post screenshots of the private chats instead of spending page after page talking about if there is mention of tampering in SMJHL rulebook or if what you said to AlexF is tampering or not. Post the screenshots yourself, the screenies here do not leave much to the imagination. Only reason why it even took that long to decide for final punishment was your novel of a appeal.

General manager does not contact random users and ask if they are active or not to try and help the league out. You did it because you wanted to have active player for free. Like the smarty pants you are, you openly bragged about it in who knows what Discord servers/chats. Played with fire and now your fingers hurt.

dankoa · 01-24-2020, 09:33 AM

The fact that an appeal was made, handled by the same people and crushed in the space of a day is actually ludicrous. I have no horse in this race but I’ve been vocal that the initial punishment was ludicrously heavy handed for what was far from a clear situation, and then going from a verdict to an appeal to a second verdict situation in like a day or however long it took is actually so ridiculous. If this is the way it’s handled there absolutely is no point having an appeal system

***bluesfan55*** · 01-24-2020, 10:02 AM

IMO the SMJHL ho didn’t handle the situation correctly at all. Saying to a guy “hey, you gonna be active in SHL again” isn’t tampering. It’s just inquiring as if he’ll ever come back. While I’m sure we all agree that the signing of Faux was illegal (and he sure hasn’t done himself any favors in terms of his conduct), there was no explicit tampering, and the punishment was way too harsh. I’d say budget restrictions, a fine, and barring them from signing free agents for the season. Having them lose picks over this is way too much.

ty to @High Stick King @EvilAllBran and @Ragnar for the sigs

***WannabeFinn*** · 01-24-2020, 10:27 AM

From the moment Donini said what he said in discord to when the verdict on the appeal was made, maybe 36 hours in total had elapsed?

Yeah.. idk man.

Weretarantula · 01-24-2020, 10:30 AM

Daco is rolling in his SHL grave

Duff101 · 01-24-2020, 03:22 PM

I think if we take a step back and look at this regardless of the guilt of the parties involved this really screams of bad. If this was a legitimate court ruling on a real issue or crime people would be outraged. It really does read like some sort of kangaroo court. The fact that the same team that rendered the original guilty verdict is the one responsible for handling the appeal is baffling to say the least and the result given was pretty much expected. If a jury convicted once they will convict again.

In addition the idea of punishing a group for the actions of the individuals is an idea I find unpleasant, and I have frequently gone into in my posts about this, but that action is extremely excessive and straight out of a totalitarian regime like North Korea, and I don’t even think I’m being particularly hyperbolic with that.

All in all this entire process has been extremely problematic from a judicial standpoint and regardless of the guilt of the accused I think he process is deeply flawed and incredibly unjust. The only real resolution to this I see is an impartial jury reevaluating the appeal and determining what the hell actually happened. Most of us are on the outside looking in and all the information we really get is from biased sources on both sides of this issue so it’s incredibly hard to discern what is truth and what is taken out of context etc etc.

Credit to Geck, Ragnar and Juni for sigs

AlexF · 01-25-2020, 05:50 AM

I just want to know why I was never contacted by HO.

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