04-28-2020, 11:21 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: I am not going to butt into the argument happening here but I do want to say that I think it's a little silly to imply that people who are making graphics primarily for the money don't also have an appreciation for "the joy of art" or whatever. Yes, I do it because I like it and it's a creative outlet for me. But I am choosing *this* creative outlet specifically because of the benefits it gives me to make my player better. I love creating things! But this isn't the only way for me to express myself creatively and I don't think it sullies the honor of art for me to say that I am choosing to spend my time on this outlet because it pays money that improves my enjoyment of the site in the form of my player being better. I also like to paint! and bake pretty things! and decorate cakes! but when I choose to spend my small amounts of free time on this one it's usually because my boy needs the cash. That doesn't mean I don't have fun doing it, but it for sure influences why I decide to do this and not some other artsy thing.
And I think that's dope and you should be better rewarded for your efforts.
Although I'm not the head of the graphics department, I am a grader and hearing constructive feedback about the system is something that is always welcomed. I had discussions about the current system with the graders and the heads and it's always good to get more points of view. There are certain ideas here that I think won't work and don't capture the essence of graphics as a whole. The job is difficult to do because there's no way to please those making sigs since art is subjective, and everyone has an idea of what they think is good/bad.
That being said, I think the current scale that's in place is friendly to graphics makers and really emphasizes improving their work. Towards the higher end of the scale (4//5 and 5/5) it gets more subjective in terms of what really makes the sig a 4 or 5, but the first 3 are pretty straight forward in what is needed to hit those grades. I think it's great because it encourages users to implement these elements in their sigs and they can get the grades. And then once they get comfortable using those elements, they can get better and continue to hit those 4s (5s are super rare, I don't give them out frequently). Personally when I grade I'll look at whether those elements are included. Once they're included, they'll get that grade. And then I'll proceed to give some bonus marks for the look of the sig, how they utilized the elements, etc. And sometimes it bumps them up a rank, or sometimes they'll get the extra 0.5 for good use of them.
I personally think the scale is fine as is. The next issue brought up in here is the overall compensation to members for their submissions. This is a little tricky, and personally I don't even know who decides the overall payout (if it's the graphics heads or HO). However, I do understand the concern that there is generally a lot of time involved in producing a sig to get a decent result when you start out - I was there and still am today. But when it comes to payout, it becomes a tricky subject, because you want to reward people fairly, but you also need to have a balance within the grades themselves. The last thing we need is to have people lose incentive to make better graphics because the pay for minimal work went up. I don't know if there's a solution to this problem, but I think the current scale is fair as is, but if there are legitimate suggestions, I'm not a department head but you can contact me here or on discord (RM#7619) to discuss them and I'll gladly bring them up to Carpy and Julio.
Why not give the artists themselves a certain grading, and then give them either pass/fail based on their usual work? Giving artists a certain rank will be the part you deliberate about, but each individual piece need not require so much input, just a comparison to their other work. This way, art need not be critiqued so fine-grained, it can be done more broad strokes. Additional feedback can be provided on a less-frequent basis and money can be dispensed more frequently.
lot of drawbacks here, but might be a way to give more precedence to graphics as a way to make money for new users. Start at the bottom, review art work every 2 weeks or so? maybe more? So at the bare minimum, perhaps, new users could e expected to make, say, $100,000 per graphic. And if it exceeds expectations set by that user, you can increase their rank.
After writing all this out, i hate it, but I'll leave it here for posterity and for the sake of discussion.
Why not give the artists themselves a certain grading, and then give them either pass/fail based on their usual work? Giving artists a certain rank will be the part you deliberate about, but each individual piece need not require so much input, just a comparison to their other work. This way, art need not be critiqued so fine-grained, it can be done more broad strokes. Additional feedback can be provided on a less-frequent basis and money can be dispensed more frequently.
lot of drawbacks here, but might be a way to give more precedence to graphics as a way to make money for new users. Start at the bottom, review art work every 2 weeks or so? maybe more? So at the bare minimum, perhaps, new users could e expected to make, say, $100,000 per graphic. And if it exceeds expectations set by that user, you can increase their rank.
After writing all this out, i hate it, but I'll leave it here for posterity and for the sake of discussion.
Pass/Fail will never work with graphics because it's just not a feasible way to grade an artistic product. Also, if you're giving a pass/fail based on a user's ability to make sigs, this is not good for the sig makers who are exceptional. Let's say Wasty/Karey are 5/5 sig makers, how can I pass them for anything less than perfect? Essentially I'm grading their sigs and seeing if they reach the level they are rated. This means users with less experience will be earning more through this pass/fail bonus than those who are producing high quality work for years of experience. While it may incentivize those newer members, it removes the incentive from the really good sig makers.
Why not give the artists themselves a certain grading, and then give them either pass/fail based on their usual work? Giving artists a certain rank will be the part you deliberate about, but each individual piece need not require so much input, just a comparison to their other work. This way, art need not be critiqued so fine-grained, it can be done more broad strokes. Additional feedback can be provided on a less-frequent basis and money can be dispensed more frequently.
lot of drawbacks here, but might be a way to give more precedence to graphics as a way to make money for new users. Start at the bottom, review art work every 2 weeks or so? maybe more? So at the bare minimum, perhaps, new users could e expected to make, say, $100,000 per graphic. And if it exceeds expectations set by that user, you can increase their rank.
After writing all this out, i hate it, but I'll leave it here for posterity and for the sake of discussion.
They already get 250k for a 1/5, but people don't want to shitpost their way to income, and I think that's where the system can fail sometimes, as the reward for outputting quality can end up being minimal in comparison.
Not sure how well your suggestion could be implemented but I'll leave that up to the graders to decide.
The other thing I wanted to mention, so I'll make a separate post here, is which problems we're trying to solve. Regarding the timing of this, it's clear one of our priorities is getting new players an engaging way to make money to make their player better, and to stop players from "throwing tantrums" and retiring because they feel hamstrung by the red tape.
One of the ways we increase player engagement is by front-loading a lot of the TPE opportunities, and offer rookie-only tasks that get them up to speed. Being that new users are usually more likely to require cash and require it sooner, would it make sense to give SMJHL rookies priority grading, and Send Downs further priority to SHL players? This solves the issue of late grading work impacting the most vulnerable users who have no money, without changing the system around too much. When you have a major backlog, new users should be a first in the queue to receive payment, while older users who usually have a large amount of cash, are able to wait longer because timing isn't usually an issue.
Why not give the artists themselves a certain grading, and then give them either pass/fail based on their usual work? Giving artists a certain rank will be the part you deliberate about, but each individual piece need not require so much input, just a comparison to their other work. This way, art need not be critiqued so fine-grained, it can be done more broad strokes. Additional feedback can be provided on a less-frequent basis and money can be dispensed more frequently.
lot of drawbacks here, but might be a way to give more precedence to graphics as a way to make money for new users. Start at the bottom, review art work every 2 weeks or so? maybe more? So at the bare minimum, perhaps, new users could e expected to make, say, $100,000 per graphic. And if it exceeds expectations set by that user, you can increase their rank.
After writing all this out, i hate it, but I'll leave it here for posterity and for the sake of discussion.
Pass/Fail will never work with graphics because it's just not a feasible way to grade an artistic product. Also, if you're giving a pass/fail based on a user's ability to make sigs, this is not good for the sig makers who are exceptional. Let's say Wasty/Karey are 5/5 sig makers, how can I pass them for anything less than perfect? Essentially I'm grading their sigs and seeing if they reach the level they are rated. This means users with less experience will be earning more through this pass/fail bonus than those who are producing high quality work for years of experience. While it may incentivize those newer members, it removes the incentive from the really good sig makers.
yeah its all bad, but there it is. We can consider this idea reviewed and dead lol.
04-28-2020, 12:23 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: The other thing I wanted to mention, so I'll make a separate post here, is which problems we're trying to solve. Regarding the timing of this, it's clear one of our priorities is getting new players an engaging way to make money to make their player better, and to stop players from "throwing tantrums" and retiring because they feel hamstrung by the red tape.
One of the ways we increase player engagement is by front-loading a lot of the TPE opportunities, and offer rookie-only tasks that get them up to speed. Being that new users are usually more likely to require cash and require it sooner, would it make sense to give SMJHL rookies priority grading, and Send Downs further priority to SHL players? This solves the issue of late grading work impacting the most vulnerable users who have no money, without changing the system around too much. When you have a major backlog, new users should be a first in the queue to receive payment, while older users who usually have a large amount of cash, are able to wait longer because timing isn't usually an issue.
Pretty sure the graders are already doing this somewhat, holding off on grading their own submissions to work through the backlog. Don't know if they have a system in place for prioritizing juniors, but I doubt it.
04-28-2020, 11:21 AMsköldpaddor Wrote: I am not going to butt into the argument happening here but I do want to say that I think it's a little silly to imply that people who are making graphics primarily for the money don't also have an appreciation for "the joy of art" or whatever. Yes, I do it because I like it and it's a creative outlet for me. But I am choosing *this* creative outlet specifically because of the benefits it gives me to make my player better. I love creating things! But this isn't the only way for me to express myself creatively and I don't think it sullies the honor of art for me to say that I am choosing to spend my time on this outlet because it pays money that improves my enjoyment of the site in the form of my player being better. I also like to paint! and bake pretty things! and decorate cakes! but when I choose to spend my small amounts of free time on this one it's usually because my boy needs the cash. That doesn't mean I don't have fun doing it, but it for sure influences why I decide to do this and not some other artsy thing.
This was really well said and probably frames how I feel about doing graphics in the current SHL landscape perfectly.
I really enjoy working with photoshop and making graphics. I didn't do it before I joined the SHL (and if anyone remembers my first graphics it was obvious) and after buying Photoshop I've taken a lot of time teaching myself to do random stuff through Youtube videos. Hell, I've started tinkering with GIF sigs in PBE and NSFL and I'm having a ton of fun, messing around with stuff almost every other day even if I don't submit them.
But, it still takes me a really long time to do things that shouldn't take me that long. I still really enjoy it. So now I do graphics in other leagues because I actually get the player side reward as well. Here I feel like I'm wasting my time "for the love of doing graphics" but I would rather devote that free time to other leagues (or other tasks) that will help my player out as well. That's what I'm here for.
But maybe that is by design with this system? I have essentially hit a wall in my SHL grades so maybe weeding people out like me is the goal. I definitely don't deserve 5/5's, I've never made a perfect sig especially compared to the titans of graphics that kill it consistently. I guess if the aim is to have people grind for a while until they get to that level then it is working?
04-28-2020, 02:30 PM(This post was last modified: 04-28-2020, 02:33 PM by grok.)
Why not let people make training claims past -1.5m based on pending graphics assuming a 1/5 rating on all works? It's the same thing we do with written media now and it at least saves a bit of headache
04-28-2020, 02:30 PMgrok Wrote: Why not let people make training claims past -1.5m based on pending graphics assuming a 1/5 rating on all works? It's the same thing we do with written media now and it at least saves a bit of headache
Actually we don't let anyone claim past -1.5m anymore. It's up to the graders to stay on top of things.
Why not give the artists themselves a certain grading, and then give them either pass/fail based on their usual work? Giving artists a certain rank will be the part you deliberate about, but each individual piece need not require so much input, just a comparison to their other work. This way, art need not be critiqued so fine-grained, it can be done more broad strokes. Additional feedback can be provided on a less-frequent basis and money can be dispensed more frequently.
lot of drawbacks here, but might be a way to give more precedence to graphics as a way to make money for new users. Start at the bottom, review art work every 2 weeks or so? maybe more? So at the bare minimum, perhaps, new users could e expected to make, say, $100,000 per graphic. And if it exceeds expectations set by that user, you can increase their rank.
After writing all this out, i hate it, but I'll leave it here for posterity and for the sake of discussion.
Pass/Fail will never work with graphics because it's just not a feasible way to grade an artistic product. Also, if you're giving a pass/fail based on a user's ability to make sigs, this is not good for the sig makers who are exceptional. Let's say Wasty/Karey are 5/5 sig makers, how can I pass them for anything less than perfect? Essentially I'm grading their sigs and seeing if they reach the level they are rated. This means users with less experience will be earning more through this pass/fail bonus than those who are producing high quality work for years of experience. While it may incentivize those newer members, it removes the incentive from the really good sig makers.
Pass/Fail is how it works in the VHL/SBA/EFL. In the VHL, newer guys can pass with their first couple as long as they are showing improvement on a weekly basis.
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