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ztevans · 07-28-2020, 08:21 AM

Me, while I was away: The FHM thing seems to be going well. The streams look really cool, too.

Me, one day into my first regular season with the recreate: C'MON YOU GUYS

Bonk · 07-28-2020, 08:26 AM

07-28-2020, 06:28 AMdankoa Wrote:
07-27-2020, 08:01 PMBonk Wrote: So the league that hates physical play, get upset when a team chooses to play physical and want to change the rules?

Cry me a river.

I hope this does not agitate anyone.
Weren’t you one of the biggest moaners about hamilton using an exploit? funny to see the mental gymnastics you can do to justify your own team doing the same thing

Does the FHM manual have it listed as a flaw in the program as it is sths? Is so I apologise to you and if not it is not, it is not the same thing. Also builds are not the same things as lines.

ztevans · 07-28-2020, 08:36 AM

07-28-2020, 08:26 AMBonk Wrote:
07-28-2020, 06:28 AMdankoa Wrote: Weren’t you one of the biggest moaners about hamilton using an exploit? funny to see the mental gymnastics you can do to justify your own team doing the same thing

Does the FHM manual have it listed as a flaw in the program as it is sths? Is so I apologise to you and if not it is not, it is not the same thing. Also builds are not the same things as lines.

So a flaw isn't a flaw as long as it isn't written down? I like you, Bonk, but you have to realize the inanity of what you're saying here.

***WannabeFinn*** · 07-28-2020, 08:47 AM

07-28-2020, 08:26 AMBonk Wrote:
07-28-2020, 06:28 AMdankoa Wrote: Weren’t you one of the biggest moaners about hamilton using an exploit? funny to see the mental gymnastics you can do to justify your own team doing the same thing

Does the FHM manual have it listed as a flaw in the program as it is sths? Is so I apologise to you and if not it is not, it is not the same thing. Also builds are not the same things as lines.

Why is it so hard to admit that running an entire lineup of 1 player role is not okay?

Waters · 07-28-2020, 09:07 AM

07-27-2020, 04:12 PMTnlAstatine Wrote:
07-27-2020, 04:10 PMPremierBromanov Wrote: I feel like we gotta chill with the panic mode whenever any team picks a strategy. This league is like a trading card game. The meta shifts and changes every season. Maybe agitators are good, maybe the counter is a different strategy. Some strategies are very very good, but easily countered and therefore they fall out of flavor.

Personally, I think it's badass that both teams are trying out this strategy, even if it lacks finesse. And really, that's the only reason anyone cares about it: it doesn't "look" like a strategy. What is the difference between full agitator and shooter-twf-shooter on every line? Is there a difference?

tldr: who cares

a full team of agitators isnt a meta or a strategy, its straight up an exploit. Please show me any team in nhl history that is a team full of dan carcilos

Mid 70s flyers

PremierBromanov · 07-28-2020, 09:11 AM

07-28-2020, 08:47 AMWannabeFinn Wrote:
07-28-2020, 08:26 AMBonk Wrote: Does the FHM manual have it listed as a flaw in the program as it is sths? Is so I apologise to you and if not it is not, it is not the same thing. Also builds are not the same things as lines.
Why is it so hard to admit that running an entire lineup of 1 player role is not okay?

because to my knowledge there's no meaningful data to back it up as an exploit and not just lazy. Nola and Edm are going to win a bunch of games regardless of their strategy, so i hope we don't look at a winning season and start crying foul about their "strategy". Correct me if I'm wrong but there are 21 forward roles and 12 players, which means there are 12^21 = 4.6x10^22 combinations. you're telling me that they ran that many tests and the "exploit" yielded, in their words, an average of 2 to 3 more wins? Very doubtful. This doesn't even take into account the build diversity of the league. Does it work for their team or every team? does it work against every team or just some teams?

point is, it's been 3 games and minimal internal testing. Lets maybe hold off a bit before we accuse whole teams of exploiting the sim in what appears to be the laziest way possible.

Samsung virtual assistant · 07-28-2020, 09:16 AM

Does the OOTP deal give us a good deal on OOTP21 too? Maybe we can try that out for our hockey sim

***WannabeFinn*** · 07-28-2020, 09:18 AM

07-28-2020, 09:11 AMPremierBromanov Wrote:
07-28-2020, 08:47 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: Why is it so hard to admit that running an entire lineup of 1 player role is not okay?
because to my knowledge there's no meaningful data to back it up as an exploit and not just lazy. Nola and Edm are going to win a bunch of games regardless of their strategy, so i hope we don't look at a winning season and start crying foul about their "strategy". Correct me if I'm wrong but there are 21 forward roles and 12 players, which means there are 12^21 = 4.6x10^22 combinations. you're telling me that they ran that many tests and the "exploit" yielded, in their words, an average of 2 to 3 more wins? Very doubtful. This doesn't even take into account the build diversity of the league. Does it work for their team or every team? does it work against every team or just some teams?

point is, it's been 3 games and minimal internal testing. Lets maybe hold off a bit before we accuse whole teams of exploiting the sim in what appears to be the laziest way possible.

I said it isn’t okay. Not that it’s an exploit. Is it a game breaking exploit like 99 scoring in STHS? No. But nobody wants to play in a league full of a fucking goons because the engine gives you a 5-6 point boost in the standings. I mean, shit, you want to be a goon or an agitator be my fucking guest. But when we have teams running players that grade out as a 5 or a 6 in their goon/agitator player role, it leads me to believe we have coaches and managers ignoring player builds in favor of player role unity - because it artificially boosts results.

***sköldpaddor*** · 07-28-2020, 09:18 AM

I’m so tired.

dankoa · 07-28-2020, 09:23 AM

07-28-2020, 09:11 AMPremierBromanov Wrote:
07-28-2020, 08:47 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: Why is it so hard to admit that running an entire lineup of 1 player role is not okay?
because to my knowledge there's no meaningful data to back it up as an exploit and not just lazy. Nola and Edm are going to win a bunch of games regardless of their strategy, so i hope we don't look at a winning season and start crying foul about their "strategy". Correct me if I'm wrong but there are 21 forward roles and 12 players, which means there are 12^21 = 4.6x10^22 combinations. you're telling me that they ran that many tests and the "exploit" yielded, in their words, an average of 2 to 3 more wins? Very doubtful. This doesn't even take into account the build diversity of the league. Does it work for their team or every team? does it work against every team or just some teams?

point is, it's been 3 games and minimal internal testing. Lets maybe hold off a bit before we accuse whole teams of exploiting the sim in what appears to be the laziest way possible.

except we have run pretty expensive testing comparing results and it produces a much better win rate than any other tactics we’d looked at

ztevans · 07-28-2020, 09:28 AM

07-28-2020, 09:18 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: I said it isn’t okay. Not that it’s an exploit. Is it a game breaking exploit like 99 scoring in STHS? No. But nobody wants to play in a league full of a fucking goons because the engine gives you a 5-6 point boost in the standings. I mean, shit, you want to be a goon or an agitator be my fucking guest. But when we have teams running players that grade out as a 5 or a 6 in their goon/agitator player role, it leads me to believe we have coaches and managers ignoring player builds in favor of player role unity - because it artificially boosts results.

Regardless of the effectiveness of full goon/agitator, I can't believe there are people in this league, prominent people who accurately shouted for IRL years how much it sucked not having build diversity in STHS and how the Hamilton thing was the straw that broke the camel's back, could then turn around and be like "Let's make everyone a goon." Whether it won you one game or 50, how did you get to that point?

I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

*fishy* · 07-28-2020, 09:33 AM

07-28-2020, 09:28 AMztevans Wrote:
07-28-2020, 09:18 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: I said it isn’t okay. Not that it’s an exploit. Is it a game breaking exploit like 99 scoring in STHS? No. But nobody wants to play in a league full of a fucking goons because the engine gives you a 5-6 point boost in the standings. I mean, shit, you want to be a goon or an agitator be my fucking guest. But when we have teams running players that grade out as a 5 or a 6 in their goon/agitator player role, it leads me to believe we have coaches and managers ignoring player builds in favor of player role unity - because it artificially boosts results.

Regardless of the effectiveness of full goon/agitator, I can't believe there are people in this league, prominent people who accurately shouted for IRL years how much it sucked not having build diversity in STHS and how the Hamilton thing was the straw that broke the camel's back, could then turn around and be like "Let's make everyone a goon." Whether it won you one game or 50, how did you get to that point?

I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

Facts

PremierBromanov · 07-28-2020, 09:33 AM

07-28-2020, 09:18 AMWannabeFinn Wrote:
07-28-2020, 09:11 AMPremierBromanov Wrote: because to my knowledge there's no meaningful data to back it up as an exploit and not just lazy. Nola and Edm are going to win a bunch of games regardless of their strategy, so i hope we don't look at a winning season and start crying foul about their "strategy". Correct me if I'm wrong but there are 21 forward roles and 12 players, which means there are 12^21 = 4.6x10^22 combinations. you're telling me that they ran that many tests and the "exploit" yielded, in their words, an average of 2 to 3 more wins? Very doubtful. This doesn't even take into account the build diversity of the league. Does it work for their team or every team? does it work against every team or just some teams?

point is, it's been 3 games and minimal internal testing. Lets maybe hold off a bit before we accuse whole teams of exploiting the sim in what appears to be the laziest way possible.
I said it isn’t okay. Not that it’s an exploit. Is it a game breaking exploit like 99 scoring in STHS? No. But nobody wants to play in a league full of a fucking goons because the engine gives you a 5-6 point boost in the standings. I mean, shit, you want to be a goon or an agitator be my fucking guest. But when we have teams running players that grade out as a 5 or a 6 in their goon/agitator player role, it leads me to believe we have coaches and managers ignoring player builds in favor of player role unity - because it artificially boosts results.

Fair enough, the issue is with player agency vs GM agency, and not "this strategy bad because i hate it"

***luke*** · 07-28-2020, 09:33 AM

07-28-2020, 09:07 AMWaters Wrote:
07-27-2020, 04:12 PMTnlAstatine Wrote: a full team of agitators isnt a meta or a strategy, its straight up an exploit. Please show me any team in nhl history that is a team full of dan carcilos
Mid 70s flyers

Woah, that flyers could bully you but could also out skill you. Bobby Clarke one of the best two way forwards ever. Bill Barber, Bernie Parent, etc

*Katth* · 07-28-2020, 09:43 AM

07-28-2020, 09:28 AMztevans Wrote:
07-28-2020, 09:18 AMWannabeFinn Wrote: I said it isn’t okay. Not that it’s an exploit. Is it a game breaking exploit like 99 scoring in STHS? No. But nobody wants to play in a league full of a fucking goons because the engine gives you a 5-6 point boost in the standings. I mean, shit, you want to be a goon or an agitator be my fucking guest. But when we have teams running players that grade out as a 5 or a 6 in their goon/agitator player role, it leads me to believe we have coaches and managers ignoring player builds in favor of player role unity - because it artificially boosts results.

Regardless of the effectiveness of full goon/agitator, I can't believe there are people in this league, prominent people who accurately shouted for IRL years how much it sucked not having build diversity in STHS and how the Hamilton thing was the straw that broke the camel's back, could then turn around and be like "Let's make everyone a goon." Whether it won you one game or 50, how did you get to that point?

I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

S50 Challenge Cup Finals Game 7
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