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PremierBromanov · 07-28-2020, 09:54 AM

07-28-2020, 09:23 AMdankoa Wrote:
07-28-2020, 09:11 AMPremierBromanov Wrote: because to my knowledge there's no meaningful data to back it up as an exploit and not just lazy. Nola and Edm are going to win a bunch of games regardless of their strategy, so i hope we don't look at a winning season and start crying foul about their "strategy". Correct me if I'm wrong but there are 21 forward roles and 12 players, which means there are 12^21 = 4.6x10^22 combinations. you're telling me that they ran that many tests and the "exploit" yielded, in their words, an average of 2 to 3 more wins? Very doubtful. This doesn't even take into account the build diversity of the league. Does it work for their team or every team? does it work against every team or just some teams?

point is, it's been 3 games and minimal internal testing. Lets maybe hold off a bit before we accuse whole teams of exploiting the sim in what appears to be the laziest way possible.

except we have run pretty expensive testing comparing results and it produces a much better win rate than any other tactics we’d looked at

can you share any of this? So far all we've heard is "we tested it".

Southie · 07-28-2020, 10:15 AM

07-28-2020, 09:18 AMWannabeFinn Wrote:
07-28-2020, 09:11 AMPremierBromanov Wrote: because to my knowledge there's no meaningful data to back it up as an exploit and not just lazy. Nola and Edm are going to win a bunch of games regardless of their strategy, so i hope we don't look at a winning season and start crying foul about their "strategy". Correct me if I'm wrong but there are 21 forward roles and 12 players, which means there are 12^21 = 4.6x10^22 combinations. you're telling me that they ran that many tests and the "exploit" yielded, in their words, an average of 2 to 3 more wins? Very doubtful. This doesn't even take into account the build diversity of the league. Does it work for their team or every team? does it work against every team or just some teams?

point is, it's been 3 games and minimal internal testing. Lets maybe hold off a bit before we accuse whole teams of exploiting the sim in what appears to be the laziest way possible.
I said it isn’t okay. Not that it’s an exploit. Is it a game breaking exploit like 99 scoring in STHS? No. But nobody wants to play in a league full of a fucking goons because the engine gives you a 5-6 point boost in the standings. I mean, shit, you want to be a goon or an agitator be my fucking guest. But when we have teams running players that grade out as a 5 or a 6 in their goon/agitator player role, it leads me to believe we have coaches and managers ignoring player builds in favor of player role unity - because it artificially boosts results.

***golden_apricot*** · 07-28-2020, 10:33 AM

07-28-2020, 09:54 AMPremierBromanov Wrote:
07-28-2020, 09:23 AMdankoa Wrote: except we have run pretty expensive testing comparing results and it produces a much better win rate than any other tactics we’d looked at
can you share any of this? So far all we've heard is "we tested it".

Goon im not sure on but at least for agitator it does boost your win totals by 2-4 wins on average, essentially ensuring you are at the upper end of the standard deviation without it. It does this beicase you end up with 60+ extra powerplay a season relitive to you not using it, so that extra powerplay time gets you the extra wins against good teams.

***CampinKiller*** · 07-28-2020, 10:52 AM

07-28-2020, 09:16 AMスウェグキング Wrote: Does the OOTP deal give us a good deal on OOTP21 too? Maybe we can try that out for our hockey sim

I was personally thinking Backyard Hockey

***CampinKiller*** · 07-28-2020, 10:54 AM

07-28-2020, 09:28 AMztevans Wrote: I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

Y'all have done it now. Disappointing zach is very rude

grok · 07-28-2020, 10:56 AM

Has anyone actually done extensive testing against the agitator strategies? FHM has countering roles mechanics, and it seems positively trivial to test with tactics that are not countered by the agitator sub-role.

I ask because I'm very nervous about the jump straight to litigating away this cheese strat. A couple days of teams testing behind closed doors without public methodology is, in my opinion, wildly insufficient to start writing rules. I know we're all still on edge from the STHS implosion and we're still feeling the effects of the migration, and I know that the all-agitator strategy is "against the spiritof the game," but we should all be on the same page with all the data before making structural changes to the league.

SlashACM · 07-28-2020, 11:06 AM

We have a rule now you're welcome league

PremierBromanov · 07-28-2020, 11:13 AM

07-28-2020, 10:56 AMgrok Wrote: . A couple days of teams testing behind closed doors without public methodology is, in my opinion, wildly insufficient to start writing rules. I know we're all still on edge from the STHS implosion and we're still feeling the effects of the migration, and I know that the all-agitator strategy is "against the spiritof the game," but we should all be on the same page with all the data before making structural changes to the league.

this is exactly what I'm talking about

Waters · 07-28-2020, 11:16 AM

07-28-2020, 09:33 AMluketd Wrote:
07-28-2020, 09:07 AMWaters Wrote: Mid 70s flyers

Woah, that flyers could bully you but could also out skill you. Bobby Clarke one of the best two way forwards ever. Bill Barber, Bernie Parent, etc

They were still all agitators, we gonna act like tony pepperoni is a goon

***luke*** · 07-28-2020, 11:23 AM

07-28-2020, 11:16 AMWaters Wrote:
07-28-2020, 09:33 AMluketd Wrote: Woah, that flyers could bully you but could also out skill you. Bobby Clarke one of the best two way forwards ever. Bill Barber, Bernie Parent, etc
They were still all agitators, we gonna act like tony pepperoni is a goon

I was just defending my flyers. not some sim bois who think they want to play no fun hockey

Samsung virtual assistant · 07-28-2020, 11:52 AM

But ya its silly to put everyone as an agitator, feels kinda like a slap in the face to anyone building their player like they wanted, with this sim that would make different builds and roles matter. I doubt theyre complaining though because theyre winning. Idk how much their personal stats are affected though.

grok · 07-28-2020, 11:54 AM

07-28-2020, 11:52 AMスウェグキング Wrote: But ya its silly to put everyone as an agitator, feels kinda like a slap in the face to anyone building their player like they wanted, with this sim that would make different builds and roles matter. I doubt theyre complaining though because theyre winning. Idk how much their personal stats are affected though.

yeah honestly since the FHM switch this is the thing that bothers me most. FHM gives us unprecedented control over our players' personal strategies, but as a SHL player you have almost zero agency over your FHM player's on-ice role.

ztevans · 07-28-2020, 12:11 PM

07-28-2020, 10:54 AMCampinKiller Wrote:
07-28-2020, 09:28 AMztevans Wrote: I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

Y'all have done it now. Disappointing zach is very rude

To be fair, I disappoint myself at least four times a day.

*slothfacekilla* · 07-28-2020, 12:21 PM

07-28-2020, 11:52 AMスウェグキング Wrote: But ya its silly to put everyone as an agitator, feels kinda like a slap in the face to anyone building their player like they wanted, with this sim that would make different builds and roles matter. I doubt theyre complaining though because theyre winning. Idk how much their personal stats are affected though.

Only reason I'm not complaining more is because I know it won't matter I'll get whatever role I'm given Angry

It certainly isn't helping my stats...

SlashACM · 07-28-2020, 12:29 PM

07-28-2020, 12:21 PMslothfacekilla Wrote:
07-28-2020, 11:52 AMスウェグキング Wrote: But ya its silly to put everyone as an agitator, feels kinda like a slap in the face to anyone building their player like they wanted, with this sim that would make different builds and roles matter. I doubt theyre complaining though because theyre winning. Idk how much their personal stats are affected though.

Only reason I'm not complaining more is because I know it won't matter I'll get whatever role I'm given It certainly isn't helping my stats...

You were getting 70 pts as an agitator in tests lol

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