08-14-2020, 08:24 PMFuzzSHL Wrote: Leave it to Tig’s Co to defend the hiring process.
I'm even on the side of the hiring process being lackluster and this ain't it chief. Not like nour hand picked tig himself without anyone else's input from HO. I get you're mad and I would be too in your shoes but nepotism was far from the problem here.
To all of HO... The job is thankless. People do put a lot of effort into this and they get high into the what if’s. Investing more and more energy into it. Regardless, I think people forget how much time league management already put into this site and then typically find themselves in a lose-lose scenario.
Thank you for the opportunity to apply and the continuous effort you all (and many others) put into this site so that we even have the ability to continue to grow and expand.
08-14-2020, 08:08 PMRotticusScott Wrote: If the worst criticism from expansion ends up being that HO wasn't nice enough to the applicants, I consider this entire process a resounding success!
What a take. Don't even message guys back who have spent multiple years on the site working towards increasing the player base.
Yeah I mean I clearly said that HO wasn't nice enough to the applicants so I don't think you disagree with my take? More of a joke on how messy expansions are than the response to you guys being upset you weren't communicated with throughout the process.
People definitely deserve the courstesy to hear back after their applications, even if it is just a short message. If that hasn't happened then HO has definitely dropped the ball and it seems like they have started adressing and rectifying that already, so that's good at least.
At the same time though, I think people need to get rid of the notion that the league or HO "owes" them something just because they put a lot of time and effort into writing a long application. Let's be very clear here, you didn't apply for this Expansion GM job as "a service to the league", you applied for it because it is something that you wanted. Because you wanted to be able to get your very own team and shape its identity, an opportunity that very few people ever get in this league. We don't owe you anything for wanting what is basically the coolest job available.
Also, being able to write a good/long application and being a good GM are two different things, that don't necessarily go hand in hand. I actually kinda fear that we are getting to a point where everyone whose style it isn't to write a 20-page application will never have a chance at one of these jobs again, even if he is insanely qualified in every other aspect. That's not meant to take away from all the effort that you guys have put into your applications, I'm sure some of them are extremely strong and I would love to see them. Just wanted to say that applications aren't everything, and that there are a bunch of other factors that (should) go into this as well.
08-14-2020, 08:54 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Also, being able to write a good/long application and being a good GM are two different things, that don't necessarily go hand in hand. I actually kinda fear that we are getting to a point where everyone whose style it isn't to write a 20-page application will never have a chance at one of these jobs again, even if he is insanely qualified in every other aspect. That's not meant to take away from all the effort that you guys have put into your applications, I'm sure some of them are extremely strong and I would love to see them. Just wanted to say that applications aren't everything, and that there are a bunch of other factors that (should) go into this as well.
Do you think something like an interview might help this situation or nah
"I expect some sort of compensation for my application HO. I didn't submitted any application but you didn't confirm with me that I did not get this job. I spend good time on this site. Regardless of the other applicant's accomplishments, I expect a what I feel I am owed by HO and this isnt it."
08-14-2020, 08:00 PMjeffie43 Wrote: You know how huge this is when he spent longer working on the video than he did trading players he just put on the block
Was that really necessary? Imagine taking a swing at a guy like this. Like what's the point, what do you gain here? Do you just get off on kicking people while they're down? Some general sense of inadequacy because your parents didn't praise you enough, so you've only ever learned how to make yourself feel good by taking others down?
08-14-2020, 08:54 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: Also, being able to write a good/long application and being a good GM are two different things, that don't necessarily go hand in hand. I actually kinda fear that we are getting to a point where everyone whose style it isn't to write a 20-page application will never have a chance at one of these jobs again, even if he is insanely qualified in every other aspect. That's not meant to take away from all the effort that you guys have put into your applications, I'm sure some of them are extremely strong and I would love to see them. Just wanted to say that applications aren't everything, and that there are a bunch of other factors that (should) go into this as well.
Do you think something like an interview might help this situation or nah
Sure but only to a limited extent. I would say that factos like general conduct around the boards, track record in previous jobs and site experience work pretty independently from applications and interviews.
08-14-2020, 08:17 PMnour Wrote: Hey so, I'll address some of this stuff here point by point.
I'm not entirely following the logic of being happy with the hirings we chose and also feeling like the process was rushed. Tig and Hotdog were HANDS DOWN the best options for the job, we all provided internal commentary on every single application we received and thoroughly reviewed every single one with the help of all HO members and the owners. It's easy to say the process appeared rushed from the outside looking in when you've seen none of the apps and weren't a part of the process, but we picked the best set of GMs for this team and we have an insane amount of confidence in both of these following their experience and application.
Head Office has had almost no precedent for follow up interviews for jobs. If that's something you guys would like I'm definitely not saying no, I think any suggestions to improve the application process is more than welcome, but I don't like the insinuation that we didn't do our due diligence on this hiring. And to be quite honest, yeah the apps we received from Hotdog and Tig were quite literally in a league of their own. We reviewed every single app and we found a few that were on par with their apps (all of which we DID in fact reach out to, anyone who was a finalist we touched based with following the hiring).
Again to this next point, I'm not OPPOSED to giving feedback at all, but that's never been done in the past at all and no one complained. That's something we can explore going forward but I'm not fully understanding the anger stemming from us not doing something we've never done before to no complaints. Not to mention that the expansion process is more than just selecting GMs, we need to set rules for selecting coGMs, we need to figure out divisional realignments for the new playoff format, we need to figure out deadline dates for protection lists, and so much more to prep for expansion. We had 14 apps, I'd love to be able to sit down and talk to all of them but we have a lot to do, and again, we DID our due diligence in the process to ensure we picked the best people possible (case in point, no one has an issue with who we actually hired).
Idk, I don't want to invalidate anyone's feelings here, like I said we are open to exploring application feedback and hiring interviews in the future, but the insinuation that we're treating this like its not a big deal feels unfounded when we have been discussing these apps, debating and weighing options for days now. I'm positive we did the what was needed during this process and we have picked the best people, not by luck, but through hard work from everyone involved.
I had written a fairly lengthy response in anger, and then at the behest of some folks in my locker room, I got up and walked around to cool down a bit. I'm rewriting my thoughts now in a much less hostile format, and I truly, truly apologize if at any time my tone slips in this message.
I want you to know, nour, that I've read your response several times and I appreciate you taking the time to make it. Unironically. No joke. Thank you. I want to put that thank you up front, because I want to acknowledge the hard work that you and the rest of HO have put in, with not just this expansion situation but everything on the site. So, again, thank you. HO can be a rough and thankless job that cuts into your personal time, and I'm certain you've all made sacrifices that nobody on the site knows about or appreciates, so, once again, thank you.
But here comes the other part. These constant "We're sorry" posts simply aren't good enough anymore. I don't think most of the people here in this thread who were applicants were looking for interviews, I don't think many of them were even looking for discussions after the fact. Speaking for myself, and myself a lone, all I was looking for was a single message, a few words, a thumbs up emoji, literally anything to signal that you guys had received my application.
Please look at this from our perspective. The deadline for applications was 8/12. They were announced mid-day 8/14, not even 48 hours post deadline. As someone who submitted on 8/11, because I was waiting for one of the artists to release an early work in progress of his logo... I hope you can understand where I'm coming from when I say that I feel as though the decision was made hastily. I'm not trying to tear down hotdog or tig, quite the opposite. I have my differences with tig and his team, and this much is known, but I'm sure he'll be a fine GM. hotdog is a close friend of mine, and I know he'll do well.
But even within your post, you can see the paradox of your own language. You state you were so strapped for time you couldn't respond to any of the applicants. Between the 10-12 grown adults involved in the selection process, nobody thought to respond to applicants, which is... surprising. Between, let's say the 10 of you, you couldn't spare a collective 15 minutes, 90 seconds a person, to send out 14 messages? You were so strapped for time, because you took such an exacting toll with the review of these applications, and yet... You still announced within 40 hours of the deadline? It might seem as though, by the deadline, you had begun to have clear favorites, and what might it have taken to change your mind on one of those clear favorites after you've already spent a week with it in your mind?
I take particular issue with these lines:
Quote:And to be quite honest, yeah the apps we received from Hotdog and Tig were quite literally in a league of their own. We reviewed every single app and we found a few that were on par with their apps (all of which we DID in fact reach out to, anyone who was a finalist we touched based with following the hiring).
Quote:Tig and Hotdog were HANDS DOWN the best options for the job
Were they the clear best, hands down in a league of their own? Or were there people on par with them, suggesting more careful evaluation was necessary? You play it both ways. It can't be both. Either they're in a league of their own, OR there were people on par with them? So which of the two halves of that message is lip service?
Quote:...we DID our due diligence in the process to ensure we picked the best people possible (case in point, no one has an issue with who we actually hired).
I don't think that's really a tree you want to begin barking up. Seems like something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, as whoever HO selects is going to be seen as the best applicant, and when the quality of the application process is what's being discussed - it's similar to Putin holding up election results and saying, "See? I got 100% of the vote, clearly I was the best candidate." But, again, I don't want to be overly negative in this message so I'm gonna drop the issue here.
And for the record, I'm not upset that I didn't get selected. I truthfully wasn't that optimistic about my chances, and that's been recorded in several LRs. I knew from the very beginning I was a fringe candidate at best. But never in a million years would I have dreamed that I wouldn't even get acknowledged. In fact, at least once I mentioned specifically wanting to put in an app so that you guys had to acknowledge and talk to me, to "look me in the eyes" and tell me why I wasn't good enough. Childish? Cringey? Yeah... Yeah. But it was a hell of a motivator to actually buckle down and finish my app. When I first read the announcement, 4 minutes after it was posted, I felt my stomach drop, but that was about that. I didn't have much hope, but had built myself up a little bit the day or two after submitting my app when I began sharing the logos I had worked on and they got good reviews. As time went on though, and I kept refreshing the site with absolutely no communication... At a certain point that began to feel like a punch to the gut.
Finally, I'd just like to say, I'm tired of reading these apology letters again and again, when the core complaint they all seem to address, the lowest common denominator always seems to be COMMUNICATION and TRANSPARENCY, and this one is no different. Don't know how many more of these letters it's gonna take for you guys to learn that the community cares about COMMUNICATION and TRANSPARENCY. Maybe there was no precedent for responding to applicants, but there's certainly a recent precedent for this community caring about COMMUNICATION and TRANSPARENCY. Sick of hearing you guys say you're gonna learn from it and do better. Just... actually do better this time.
Last comment from me on this as I think Corey has this well in hand (even before I posted this)
@nour feedback takes many forms. Classic interviews, and getting the opportunity to interview is feedback. Be told you didn't make the interview stage is feedback. Being told you have been shortlisted.etc.etc.
I think RED made a good challenge to my assertion that feedback should have been given to other applicants. But I do think even being told they weren't being interviewed or hadn't been shortlisted before an announcement helps reset expectations and then also enables a conversation to start about more in-depth feedback.
Echoing Wally's comment HO is a thankless task and stuff like me posting this thread doesn't make it easier for them. So thanks to everyone in HO for working on these applications and announcing two amazing future GMs. Just next time give yourself some more time and space, the site can wait 3 days.
I had written a fairly lengthy response in anger, and then at the behest of some folks in my locker room, I got up and walked around to cool down a bit. I'm rewriting my thoughts now in a much less hostile format, and I truly, truly apologize if at any time my tone slips in this message.
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