Login

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-25-2020, 06:27 PM

*Flowseidon* · 09-27-2020, 07:56 PM

@RomanesEuntDomus Thanks for tagging me. Easier to miss it when I'm not

I definitely understand the frustration and am definitely open to suggestions for how we can better the process in the coming seasons. I'll give you a quick rundown of the process

1) Call for noms, each committee members nominates their 5 all-stars for the season (Format of Winger, Center, Forward, 2x Defence, Goalie just like the team)
2) Vote on those involved. The voting is done via ranked choice.
3) Votes are tallied and those with highest vote totals are slotted in. Ties are broken by highest average votes.

I am open to any suggestions to improve the process, and how we can ensure that the most deserving are getting the spot. I can commit that next season I will make nominations/vote totals public and am looking into trying to figure out a smooth way to do a fan vote team (in the coming season).

Now it's definitely not ideal

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-28-2020, 04:31 AM

09-27-2020, 07:56 PMFlowseidon Wrote: @RomanesEuntDomus Thanks for tagging me. Easier to miss it when I'm not

I definitely understand the frustration and am definitely open to suggestions for how we can better the process in the coming seasons. I'll give you a quick rundown of the process

1) Call for noms, each committee members nominates their 5 all-stars for the season (Format of Winger, Center, Forward, 2x Defence, Goalie just like the team)
2) Vote on those involved. The voting is done via ranked choice.
3) Votes are tallied and those with highest vote totals are slotted in. Ties are broken by highest average votes.

I am open to any suggestions to improve the process, and how we can ensure that the most deserving are getting the spot. I can commit that next season I will make nominations/vote totals public and am looking into trying to figure out a smooth way to do a fan vote team (in the coming season).

Now it's definitely not ideal

Just to clarify, so people on the committee nominate/vote for just 6 players even though there are 18 spots total to fill? Or are the 6 people just for the nomination part but then they get to vote for 18 players?

In either case, I think this methodology has some severe weaknesses then when it comes to filling the "lower" spots due to the 6 votes/nominations bottleneck and I would strongly suggest leaving this step out and switching to full 18-player ballots. There are multiple ways to do this and I can see different people having different preferences, here are just two suggestions that I would have:
The first would be to simply eliminate the nomination phase altogether and start with 18-player ranked choice ballots right away. Maybe something like 3 points for every player on someones 1st team, 2 for everyone on the 2nd and 1 for everyone on the 3rd.
The second suggestion would be to also eliminate the nomination phase (I think it is simply not needed in general) but then go to a three-stage voting process. Committee members submit a 6-person ballot and the players with the most points in each position form the 1st All-Star team, then another 6-person ballot of the leftover players is submitted and those Winners form the 2nd All-Star team and then the same again one last time for the 3rd team. I think this process would give the best results, but it also takes the longest so I'm not sure how realistic it would be since you probably have to give committee members at least three to four days, probably closer to a week, per round of ballots.

I think either of those changes would fix many of the things about the results that me and others have been unhappy about. Our main issue was that too often, the second or even third best player on a top-teams superstar line makes it in over someone on a slightly weaker team who actually carried his team on his back (Kvalheim this season, Winter last season) but now that you have laid out the voting methodology I can see that this might not have been due to ASG voters screwing up, but due to weaknesses in the system itself. I believe that the ballot changes I proposed could be enough to fix that already. Still, I would like for you guys to keep an eye on this issue and to take teammates/team strength into account more when doing your voting. Putting up 60 points when your other winger put up 72 is less impressive than putting up 60 points (and arguably better defensive stats) when the two next best scorers on your team only have 44 and 38 points respectively. Or would you disagree with that assessment?

Anyway, thanks for your reply and for laying out your process, it definitely helped in understanding what might have went wrong these last few seasons!

*Flowseidon* · 09-28-2020, 10:21 AM

Those are some good suggestions, thanks for bringing them forward.

I'll follow up with deeper thoughts later, but just to clarify, everyone from the nomination phase makes it to the ranked-choice voting (it is similar to the point system you had described). So they're slotting people in out of all of those that were nominated (typically between 20-30 players).

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-28-2020, 04:28 PM

09-28-2020, 10:21 AMFlowseidon Wrote: Those are some good suggestions, thanks for bringing them forward.

I'll follow up with deeper thoughts later, but just to clarify, everyone from the nomination phase makes it to the ranked-choice voting (it is similar to the point system you had described). So they're slotting people in out of all of those that were nominated (typically between 20-30 players).

Yes but the problem with only 6 nominations per committee member but 18 total slots is that you don't get an accurate representation of peoples opinions the further down you go. Like, there are lots of players who have no case to be on someones Top-6 ballot, but who absolutely have a case for the 2nd or 3rd star team. In regards to Forwards, the 1st Team was probably pretty cut and dry this season with Wilson, Luffy and Smeb, I have absolutely no problem with these selections. Everyone who doesn't have them on his 6-player ballot is essentially submitting a bad ballot. But you need more than 6 players/3 forwards, you need 18/9, so people on the committee are basically required to submit "bad" nomination lists so that you even get enough players to fill the teams. This gets arbitrary real fast and also leads to the absurd situation where the early voters kinda have to "waste" their ballots to nominate the obvious candidates that everyone agrees on anyway, whereas the late voters can basically "snipe" ballots to get some of their lower-ranked favorites on the final list.

I would argue that the nomination process serves no real value and can be scrapped altogether and replaced with voting off the bat. I would expect every member of this committee to be aware of who the best players in the SHL were this season anyway, and if someone wants to make a specific players case he can still do so in your committees Discord or subforum and you can talk things over there. This change wouldn't mean that there couldnt be discussions anymore, you could still have plenty of those, it would just stop them from being forced into an ill-fit nomination pattern that doesn't seem to prevent certain players from being missed.

Keygan · 09-28-2020, 04:36 PM

09-28-2020, 04:28 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
09-28-2020, 10:21 AMFlowseidon Wrote: Those are some good suggestions, thanks for bringing them forward.

I'll follow up with deeper thoughts later, but just to clarify, everyone from the nomination phase makes it to the ranked-choice voting (it is similar to the point system you had described). So they're slotting people in out of all of those that were nominated (typically between 20-30 players).

Yes but the problem with only 6 nominations per committee member but 18 total slots is that you don't get an accurate representation of peoples opinions the further down you go. Like, there are lots of players who have no case to be on someones Top-6 ballot, but who absolutely have a case for the 2nd or 3rd star team. In regards to Forwards, the 1st Team was probably pretty cut and dry this season with Wilson, Luffy and Smeb, I have absolutely no problem with these selections. Everyone who doesn't have them on his 6-player ballot is essentially submitting a bad ballot. But you need more than 6 players/3 forwards, you need 18/9, so people on the committee are basically required to submit "bad" nomination lists so that you even get enough players to fill the teams. This gets arbitrary real fast and also leads to the absurd situation where the early voters kinda have to "waste" their ballots to nominate the obvious candidates that everyone agrees on anyway, whereas the late voters can basically "snipe" ballots to get some of their lower-ranked favorites on the final list.

I would argue that the nomination process serves no real value and can be scrapped altogether and replaced with voting off the bat. I would expect every member of this committee to be aware of who the best players in the SHL were this season anyway, and if someone wants to make a specific players case he can still do so in your committees Discord or subforum and you can talk things over there. This change wouldn't mean that there couldnt be discussions anymore, you could still have plenty of those, it would just stop them from being forced into an ill-fit nomination pattern that doesn't seem to prevent certain players from being missed.

You can’t nominate the same player twice.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-28-2020, 04:55 PM

How many people are there even on the committee then if every 6-player list needs to be unique but you end up with "only" 20-30 nominees? Is it only like 4 to 5 people?

*Flowseidon* · 09-29-2020, 12:40 PM

09-28-2020, 04:55 PMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote: How many people are there even on the committee then if every 6-player list needs to be unique but you end up with "only" 20-30 nominees? Is it only like 4 to 5 people?

6

18 forwards
12 d
6 g

Navigation

Extra Menu

About us