09-18-2020, 12:22 AMJAJA SWEG DINGDONG Wrote: IMO people need to learn ASAP that affording max training is earned, not given. I don't know what send down salaries look like these days but arent send-downs earning about the same as lower tpe tier SHL players?
I don't really care though, gimme back-pay tho pls :eyes:
These first gens think the SHL will coddle them so they can go and eat avocado toast and post tiktok memes well let me tell you what first gens back when I created, I wasn't asking for handouts and telling the SHL they should give me this and give me that I was WORKING HARD and had a JOB! I bet these first gens don't even know what a JOB is.
Can't tell if you're trying to make fun of me or nah
09-18-2020, 11:56 AM(This post was last modified: 09-18-2020, 11:57 AM by Samsung virtual assistant.)
09-18-2020, 10:39 AMZema Wrote: One argument I have yet to see is that efficiency of TPE has fallen down. Of what I've heard, a guy with 500-600 TPE could still not be complete garbage in the SHL, but with FHM that has changed. The goal should probably tbe to make the bottom players on a roster be at 800 TPE scaling up.
As someone previously mentioned, player retention is pretty bad. There is also a big thing in the community that if you aren't earning max you don't really have a place in the SHL.
I think lowering the costs for send-downs will help. But I also think slightly upping the TPE gain from the lower tiers of training could be worth looking into. instead of 1-3-5, making it 2-4-5 could be better.
I like this idea that the lower tiers of training is upped. Much more so than upping equipment costs and/or lowering training costs. Affording the best training isn't a privilege. If we want everyone to afford the highest training without any effort we might as well remove training and up the AC TPE, or is posting in the AC's too much work too? (not trying to be condescending towards anyone)
09-18-2020, 10:39 AMZema Wrote: One argument I have yet to see is that efficiency of TPE has fallen down. Of what I've heard, a guy with 500-600 TPE could still not be complete garbage in the SHL, but with FHM that has changed. The goal should probably tbe to make the bottom players on a roster be at 800 TPE scaling up.
As someone previously mentioned, player retention is pretty bad. There is also a big thing in the community that if you aren't earning max you don't really have a place in the SHL.
I think lowering the costs for send-downs will help. But I also think slightly upping the TPE gain from the lower tiers of training could be worth looking into. instead of 1-3-5, making it 2-4-5 could be better.
I like this idea that the lower tiers of training is upped. Much more so than upping equipment costs and/or lowering training costs. Affording the best training isn't a privilege. If we want everyone to afford the highest training without any effort we might as well remove training and up the AC TPE, or is posting in the AC's too much work too? (not trying to be condescending towards anyone)
I mean, the whole point is that max earning is supposed to be hard and terrible. I know it was 4 years ago, but when i started here, the idea behind it was "you get what you put into it". if you wanted to be a psychopath max earner (Like I did), you had to get a job, churn out media, and make it work. Now everyone wants 2K TPE handed to them.
This is the problem with Everybody Gets a Trophy Day.
If you want to be the best player in the league, you have to go above and beyond. That's what this is all about. We shouldn't be making that easier for everyone.
09-18-2020, 01:23 PM(This post was last modified: 09-18-2020, 01:26 PM by spooked.)
09-18-2020, 01:02 PMJKortesi81 Wrote: I mean, the whole point is that max earning is supposed to be hard and terrible. I know it was 4 years ago, but when i started here, the idea behind it was "you get what you put into it". if you wanted to be a psychopath max earner (Like I did), you had to get a job, churn out media, and make it work. Now everyone wants 2K TPE handed to them.
This is the problem with Everybody Gets a Trophy Day.
If you want to be the best player in the league, you have to go above and beyond. That's what this is all about. We shouldn't be making that easier for everyone.
A training cost reduction for 3 seasons doesn't change that at all. It's still costing players 4 times as much as the usual send down contract is to max earn. It actually has very little impact on max earning really considering if you were going to get 12.5 million a season you would probably be willing to get 16.5 million a season as well, and after 3 seasons its back to 16.5 million again anyways, in my proposal. I get the sentiment, but it's kind of a leap to assume small cost reduction would all of a sudden make it easy to max earn. The whole point is not to make it easy to max earn, but make it easier to stay relevant.
09-18-2020, 01:02 PMJKortesi81 Wrote: I mean, the whole point is that max earning is supposed to be hard and terrible. I know it was 4 years ago, but when i started here, the idea behind it was "you get what you put into it". if you wanted to be a psychopath max earner (Like I did), you had to get a job, churn out media, and make it work. Now everyone wants 2K TPE handed to them.
This is the problem with Everybody Gets a Trophy Day.
If you want to be the best player in the league, you have to go above and beyond. That's what this is all about. We shouldn't be making that easier for everyone.
No one in here is suggesting everyone should be a max earner. People are suggesting there should be more room for a middle ground so that non-max earners don't leave the site.
09-18-2020, 01:02 PMJKortesi81 Wrote: I mean, the whole point is that max earning is supposed to be hard and terrible. I know it was 4 years ago, but when i started here, the idea behind it was "you get what you put into it". if you wanted to be a psychopath max earner (Like I did), you had to get a job, churn out media, and make it work. Now everyone wants 2K TPE handed to them.
This is the problem with Everybody Gets a Trophy Day.
If you want to be the best player in the league, you have to go above and beyond. That's what this is all about. We shouldn't be making that easier for everyone.
I think the major issue (of which I have no way to solve) is the time factor.
If you max-earn (we'll quantify this as 100% effort) you get to 1000 TPE midway through your 4th season and become a competent player. By the time you're into your late 6th, early 7th season you're a good player at 1350-1800 TPE. 9th - 15th season you're an elite player with 1800+ TPE. you stay good until your 20th season and then competent until your 22-23rd.
People who earn at 75% that rate don't become competent until their 6th season, they become a good player right around their 10th season and max out at 1500 TPE. They stay in that 1350-1500 range for 4 more seasons until they're knocked back down to competent and survive for a few more seasons before they're not worth keeping.
So 100% earner's 20 season career looks like this:
Competent: 6
Good: 7
Elite: 7
75% earner's 15 season career looks like this:
Below average: 2
Competent: 8
Good: 5
The extra 25% in earning creates so much more than a 25% increase in success.
I'd rather see a change to the update scale to make low tpe player more viable, but still make max earners stand out(if they dont have a really bad build) but im not smart enough to do that.
I'd think the ideal would be players being viable on the 4th line at like 6-700 tpe and not having people stay in the J for so long.
09-18-2020, 01:47 PM(This post was last modified: 09-18-2020, 01:48 PM by Nhamlet.)
So much of this proposal continually gets misconstrued as having some impact or relevance on max earning. Over a 9 season period post SHL draft, suggesting that at most, discounted training for 3-4 of those seasons is somehow disregarding or minimalizing the effort it takes to max earn is misrepresenting what spooked looks to be addressing.
The cost of max earning training and coaching over those 9 seasons cost about 1m (x8 weeks) and max coaching (8.5m) for a total of 16.5m
To be able to hit that by your 10th season (draft -1 season) you'll need 9 seasons of 148.5m give or take some weeks.
Spooky's proposal only affects the first couple seasons, likely up to a max of 3 because if you earn well and are active enough to keep up you'll be called up in your 4th season of post SHL draft. So that's 3 seasons of reduced training income. At his proposed rate of 50% of training cost, coaching remains (8.5m) but instead 0.5m (x8 weeks) for 3 seasons, and then 6 seasons of full cost (again assuming that you're staying down for that amount). That difference comes out to 4m per season of send down activity, for a maximum of 12m "saved" from staying in the J making the total for max earning or at least to hit 2kish TPE by season 10th 148.5m - 12m = 136.5m
For the argument that this makes 2K TPE "handed out to everybody", there's still over 135M that needs to be earned. 8% reduction of costs in the overall scheme of reaching 2K doesn't seem a make or break sort of deal for folks who are earning as much as possible. At worst you can make up that cost by tacking it on as a "2K club fee" if you really wanted to, in order to signify that players who received the same honors at least met the same kind of financial costs as the ones in the past.
At the end of the day, again this doesn't have anything to do with max earning. This is to do with improving with player retention through addressing the exponential increase in expenses after the first season on the site. There's lots of other areas that need to be addressed as well, from mindset of a non 2K TPE player, GM involvement, among many other things, but I do believe this is one way to go about it.
Personally I'm not attached to the 50% training reduction idea but one of the problems of the sudden demand in financial cost is certainly one to be looked at in my opinion.
09-18-2020, 01:46 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: I don’t know why anyone is claiming a decrease in our retention rate. That’s just incorrect.
its either incorrect or we cant isolate the reason for sure because of other effects compounding on things. I know anchorage has not lost a player because they cant keep up with tpe since i joined in s49, its always other things and sim leagues take a back seat which is how things should be.
09-18-2020, 01:47 PMNhamlet Wrote: So much of this proposal continually gets misconstrued as having some impact or relevance on max earning. Over a 9 season period post SHL draft, suggesting that at most, discounted training for 3-4 of those seasons is somehow disregarding or minimalizing the effort it takes to max earn is misrepresenting what spooked looks to be addressing.
The cost of max earning training and coaching over those 9 seasons cost about 1m (x8 weeks) and max coaching (8.5m) for a total of 16.5m
To be able to hit that by your 10th season (draft -1 season) you'll need 9 seasons of 148.5m give or take some weeks.
Spooky's proposal only affects the first couple seasons, likely up to a max of 3 because if you earn well and are active enough to keep up you'll be called up in your 4th season of post SHL draft. So that's 3 seasons of reduced training income. At his proposed rate of 50% of training cost, coaching remains (8.5m) but instead 0.5m (x8 weeks) for 3 seasons, and then 6 seasons of full cost (again assuming that you're staying down for that amount). That difference comes out to 4m per season of send down activity, for a maximum of 12m "saved" from staying in the J making the total for max earning or at least to hit 2kish TPE by season 10th 148.5m - 12m = 136.5m
For the argument that this makes 2K TPE "handed out to everybody", there's still over 135M that needs to be earned. 8% reduction of costs in the overall scheme of reaching 2K doesn't seem a make or break sort of deal for folks who are earning as much as possible. At worst you can make up that cost by tacking it on as a "2K club fee" if you really wanted to, in order to signify that players who received the same honors at least met the same kind of financial costs as the ones in the past.
At the end of the day, again this doesn't have anything to do with max earning. This is to do with improving with player retention through addressing the exponential increase in expenses after the first season on the site. There's lots of other areas that need to be addressed as well, from mindset of a non 2K TPE player, GM involvement, among many other things, but I do believe this is one way to go about it.
Personally I'm not attached to the 50% training reduction idea but one of the problems of the sudden demand in financial cost is certainly one to be looked at in my opinion.
I see math, I like it. Also to @WannabeFinn said, I don’t feel that we’re struggling with retention. I do think though that rookies who have started with FHM may definitely hit that season 5 point and wonder why they’re only okay players where back in the day you led hit your fifth season and at least in my opinion be rolling. I think the hard part is that we’re learning FHM definitely punishes lower/ mid tier players but the question is what do we do. Spooked’s proposal is that if we can improve junior progression they’ll finish juniors better as an average then before. Your path to becoming elite afterwards is your own
09-18-2020, 01:47 PMNhamlet Wrote: So much of this proposal continually gets misconstrued as having some impact or relevance on max earning.
Its not so much his proposal, but its the idea of changing the current training system. So for that argument let us be 100% clear, there is NO increase in cost of training from the SMJHL rookie season to the SHL season, what is added is an extra tier for an extra 2 tpe. So for any argument to come into play that argues against this system is inherently about earning tpe at a max rate relative to your peers. And yes it is difficult to do i dont disagree with that, i have had players complain about it a fair amount, and their solution was to get more out of their contract by going to FA which was able to work for them.
One of the better proposals on this topic was to make it so you can only do shl training while on an active shl roster, this helps to level the playing field from the top recreates and the new guys by giving the new guys more time to generate a bank and/or get a site job to help out.
There is also a fallacy that you need to be 1800 tpe to score goals in fhm which is blatantly false but yet is still talked about like it is all that matters. JSS was one of the best players in fhm and i dont think he was ever above 1400 tpe once we made the switch. you dont have to max earn but far too many place an importance on this which results in more stress about getting the 1M training vs the 500k training.
09-18-2020, 01:46 PMWannabeFinn Wrote: I don’t know why anyone is claiming a decrease in our retention rate. That’s just incorrect.
its either incorrect or we cant isolate the reason for sure because of other effects compounding on things. I know anchorage has not lost a player because they cant keep up with tpe since i joined in s49, its always other things and sim leagues take a back seat which is how things should be.
You cannot isolate what the cash economy really does to the player base (which is why I said no where that there is a sudden drop in retention, there isn't), but it has always been a stress point for as long as I have been around, and it isn't really needed to be as drastic as it is now. Reducing cash requirements will help people who have "other reasons" stay because the site doesn't propose itself as such a time sink to some users who simply cannot afford to do "homework" media pieces or additional jobs. I am not sure it is possible to really isolate what the cash system does to the player base since there are many reasons why someone would chose to leave that could go down to not having time/energy to make cash that would instead be reported as being for irl reasons.
The change I propose is not really about the cash itself, as it is only a difference of 12M on a full career assuming 3 full send down seasons and those numbers would be adjusted by HO/ownership etc., but it is more about allowing users to go for better training longer early and help some people not be forced to feel bad about having to give up on tpe every single week 2 months into using the site just cause they may be busy with their life.
It really doesn't change much about the cash requirement for top tiers, since it would still be a challenge for people to reach without putting serious time in, and those players may even get called up early and not make use of the savings in-full to begin with, but only about removing some of it for someone who just wants to do medium/max training each week and not have to go nuts just to feel like they could have a player who will get called up at some point before they are forced to retire.
09-18-2020, 01:47 PMNhamlet Wrote: So much of this proposal continually gets misconstrued as having some impact or relevance on max earning.
There is also a fallacy that you need to be 1800 tpe to score goals in fhm which is blatantly false but yet is still talked about like it is all that matters. JSS was one of the best players in fhm and i dont think he was ever above 1400 tpe once we made the switch. you dont have to max earn but far too many place an importance on this which results in more stress about getting the 1M training vs the 500k training.
I can see this, but TPE is weird in that it also extends your career artificially so someone who cannot afford full training will not only be less useful in the sim when they are peak, but they will also have less seasons to be useful as well. It's true that maybe superteams in FHM invalidate some other TPE levels I would think more than STHS did, but I am not sure that means we should also ignore the idea that maybe there is an issue with the way we are doing things right now. TPE is super important to both skill but also lifespan of a player, and cash is one of the most important aspects of making TPE right now. It's definitely a complex situation to try and adjust since you could argue that changing any one of the cap, the sim, lineup rules, training, cash, AC values, player builds, and so on, could also do the same, I am not sure there is any other isolated way to specifically target early send down players other than cash and training. Maybe the update scale? But that would more heavily impact max earners as well, so it's a balancing act.
As long as we can discuss the problem that I think exists I am happy! I think the biggest identifiable shortfall of the system we have right now is that send downs get the least money generally while also having relatively low TPE amounts which makes max training + max coaching extremely important and noticeable, and a poor start has LONG LASTING impact on not only their peak potential, but also the length of their career.
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