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Duff101 · 09-21-2020, 11:34 AM

This is almost a half suggestion and half-question.

1. After a player is drafted and signed by an SHL Team, that player’s rights are owned by the SHL Team that drafted them for 3 seasons.

If a player’s contract expires within this 3-season window, they will become a Restricted Free Agent.

A couple of preliminary questions:

1. What happens if a player doesn't sign, are they still subject to that 3 seasons rule?
2. If the answer to 1 is yes, why as an SHL GM would you not always wait until year 3 to pay your draftees to free up cap space?
3. Is there a part I'm missing that explains answers to 1 and 2?

I get where they're coming from with the three seasons thing, but for drafted players that for some reason or another can't come to a contract or are unsigned (I know this is probably a fairly rare occurrence but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be accounted for). If a player is unsigned after a year they should either become a UFA or be reentered into the draft pool.

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PremierBromanov · 09-21-2020, 11:42 AM

2. If the answer to 1 is yes, why as an SHL GM would you not always wait until year 3 to pay your draftees to free up cap space?

You can't do +5 training without a contract (i think)
Players like money and therefore will stick around if you give it to them
giving players money helps them afford training most of the time
If you don't sign your player for 3 seasons, they are definitely not signing with you at that point.

JNH · 09-21-2020, 11:46 AM

09-21-2020, 11:42 AMPremierBromanov Wrote: 2. If the answer to 1 is yes, why as an SHL GM would you not always wait until year 3 to pay your draftees to free up cap space?

You can't do +5 training without a contract (i think)
Players like money and therefore will stick around if you give it to them
giving players money helps them afford training most of the time
If you don't sign your player for 3 seasons, they are definitely not signing with you at that point.

Yeah this is mostly correct.

You can do +5, but you can't do TTC. You can do SMJHL TTC for year 1 (10 vs. 21 TPE) then nothing after so you're forfeiting 11, 15 and 9 TPE respectively throughout those 3 years.

The players will get $$ via their SMJHL deals, but you don't develop the same loyalty with a GM who won't pay you. It's different in exceptional circumstances where the SHL team and player already have an established relationship, but with a first gen or someone new to the team it doesn't quite have the same benefits.

edit: this isn't to say that the current system is right or anything, just explaining what goes on

***hhh81*** · 09-21-2020, 12:38 PM

I have been told that an HO member may have told GMs that unsigned players couldn't be offer sheeted by other teams, even if they don't get a contract. if this is true, it runs counter to the spirit of our rules. I hoped in the rewritten rulebook HO would fix this loophole and provide some clarity. It hasn't happened yet, but I"m hopeful HO's been working on it behind the scenes and they have some updated language soon.

My thought? I rather see players get drafted than go undrafted season after season, even if a team can't offer a contract. I think one year of contract-free ness is okay (not ideal), but 3 years of being immune from getting a contract from any team but the team that drafted you isn't the right way to go. They should be treated as RFAs, and if a team wants to risk an offer sheet, they should be able to to get that player.

There are absolutely roster spots available right now for a 450-600 TPE defenseman in the SHL. If a player doesn't have a contract from their current team because that team doesn't have space, they should be able to sign with another team that can give them both contract and playing time.

PremierBromanov · 09-21-2020, 12:45 PM

09-21-2020, 12:38 PMhhh81 Wrote: I have been told that an HO member may have told GMs that unsigned players couldn't be offer sheeted by other teams, even if they don't get a contract. if this is true, it runs counter to the spirit of our rules. I hoped in the rewritten rulebook HO would fix this loophole and provide some clarity. It hasn't happened yet, but I"m hopeful HO's been working on it behind the scenes and they have some updated language soon.

My thought? I rather see players get drafted than go undrafted season after season, even if a team can't offer a contract. I think one year of contract-free ness is okay (not ideal), but 3 years of being immune from getting a contract from any team but the team that drafted you isn't the right way to go. They should be treated as RFAs, and if a team wants to risk an offer sheet, they should be able to to get that player.

There are absolutely roster spots available right now for a 450-600 TPE defenseman in the SHL. If a player doesn't have a contract from their current team because that team doesn't have space, they should be able to sign with another team that can give them both contract and playing time.

another good reason for a 4th line

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 09-21-2020, 01:23 PM

09-21-2020, 12:38 PMhhh81 Wrote: I have been told that an HO member may have told GMs that unsigned players couldn't be offer sheeted by other teams, even if they don't get a contract. if this is true, it runs counter to the spirit of our rules. I hoped in the rewritten rulebook HO would fix this loophole and provide some clarity. It hasn't happened yet, but I"m hopeful HO's been working on it behind the scenes and they have some updated language soon.

My thought? I rather see players get drafted than go undrafted season after season, even if a team can't offer a contract. I think one year of contract-free ness is okay (not ideal), but 3 years of being immune from getting a contract from any team but the team that drafted you isn't the right way to go. They should be treated as RFAs, and if a team wants to risk an offer sheet, they should be able to to get that player.

There are absolutely roster spots available right now for a 450-600 TPE defenseman in the SHL. If a player doesn't have a contract from their current team because that team doesn't have space, they should be able to sign with another team that can give them both contract and playing time.

Yeah I would agree. If/when the rulebook is reworked, this is a topic where I think we have the opportunity to spice things up and make them more interesting while also helping us with retention for lesser activity players a bit. It is a delicate balance, because we don't want the top-teams who are already at the cap to be able to stockpile too many prospects, but at the same time it sucks to lose members because there is no room for them before they have even hit the SHL, and because GMs have no incentive to work on keeping them active because they know they won't be able to fit them in anyway.

What's most important though and should be the guiding principle when talking about contracts and especially ELCs is that no side should have too much leverage over the other. It shouldn't really be possible for players to force their way off a team that drafted them and that they aren't thrilled about with no repercussions for themselves or their new team, but it also shouldn't be possible for GMs to handcuff their players to the point where we risk losing them as members altogether. Not saying that either of these things are happening right now, but they are crucial to keep an eye on during any reword.

***boom*** · 09-21-2020, 02:20 PM

HO is discussing a fix since this did come up a little while ago on the backend.

Sean · 09-21-2020, 04:45 PM

I'd like a system where GMs need to make an offer of at least 2.5m to keep a unsigned drafted player from re-entering the draft (ie. a S56 draftee must be offered a contract for S57 or they will be entered back into the S57 draft). If the offer is not made, the player is re-entered into the draft. If the offer is made, the player can sign it or refuse it, but they will not be re-entered into the draft and the rights will be retained by the SHL team.

This helps solve two potential issues.

Issue 1: a player can currently sit in limbo for 3 seasons without a contract and without any rights to leave the team. This would make it so SHL teams needed to sign players or let them go back into the draft.

Issue 2: If we allow players to enter back into the draft without any stipulation, a user could refuse to sign in order to get drafted to a new team, even if the SHL team was willing to sign them. This would prevent a player from leaving only one season after being drafted.

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wumaduce · 09-21-2020, 05:51 PM

I was going to make my own post, but I'll piggyback on this.

As a player who wanted to do his 5 seasons in the J and retire, I feel like I was strong armed by the HO at the time to not do that. There was lots of "well if you don't sign..." or "you won't be able to do..."

It would be nice to see, in the rulebook, exactly what a player is allowed to do/prohibited from doing if they a) refuse to sign with the team that drafts them, b) refuses to sign for what would be their 5th season in the J, c) doesn't get drafted at all, d) gets drafted but not signed.

Personally, I would like to have the way to declare my next player ineligible for the SHL draft and play my whole 5 seasons in the minors. Cap at 425 tpe, or whatever the max is at the time, and auto-retire after the end of the 5th season. Remain on the J teams payroll the whole time, and never take a dime from an SHL team I would never play for.

JNH · 09-21-2020, 06:06 PM

09-21-2020, 05:51 PMwumaduce Wrote: I was going to make my own post, but I'll piggyback on this.

As a player who wanted to do his 5 seasons in the J and retire, I feel like I was strong armed by the HO at the time to not do that. There was lots of "well if you don't sign..." or "you won't be able to do..."

It would be nice to see, in the rulebook, exactly what a player is allowed to do/prohibited from doing if they a) refuse to sign with the team that drafts them, b) refuses to sign for what would be their 5th season in the J, c) doesn't get drafted at all, d) gets drafted but not signed.

Personally, I would like to have the way to declare my next player ineligible for the SHL draft and play my whole 5 seasons in the minors. Cap at 425 tpe, or whatever the max is at the time, and auto-retire after the end of the 5th season. Remain on the J teams payroll the whole time, and never take a dime from an SHL team I would never play for.

SMJHL rulebook s.4(d)(ii) & (iii) clarifies your points, though not as explicitly as you'd like.

(ii) Any player not drafted to the SHL is NOT considered a Send-down. They are also NOT considered a Rookie. These players may complete SMJHL Personal Coaching, SHL Point Tasks, SHL Weekly Trainings, and Activity Checks. They may complete SMJHL Team Training Camp only for their sophomore season.
(iii) A SMJHL player must enter the SHL via draft. A player may not bypass the SMJHL to sign directly to an SHL team. A player may not declare themselves ineligible for either the SMJHL or SHL Draft (i.e. may not declare themselves Free Agents).

We've had this come up with some of our players in NL over the years and if you are signed to an SMJHL contract after your SHL Draft (regardless of whether you were drafted and un-signed or not drafted at all)

- You do everything SHL players can do (barring following exclusion(s))
- In your d+1 you are allowed to do SMJHL TTC instead of SHL
- Following your d+1, you are not allowed to do any team training camp

I don't think it's necessary to create a system to auto-retire your player when you can just retire them yourself when your 5 years is up.

Editing just to clarify (iii) in regards to your point about wanting to declare yourself ineligible. This is all under the current rules but:

Legally, you cannot do that because they want to prevent skipping draft to go to FA even though this is a different motive/situation. However, you can definitely make your intentions known to SHL teams (to hit 425 and retire immediately after SMJHL) and I'm fairly certain you'd go undrafted and be free to return to the SMJHL. Additionally, even if a team did decide to draft you, you're free to not sign with them and return to the SMJHL. AFAIK, both of these situations would then allow you to earn TPE under (ii) even though the language there just says not drafted just based on what has been allowed in the past.

*Count Chocula* · 09-21-2020, 06:33 PM

09-21-2020, 06:06 PMJNH Wrote:
09-21-2020, 05:51 PMwumaduce Wrote: I was going to make my own post, but I'll piggyback on this.

As a player who wanted to do his 5 seasons in the J and retire, I feel like I was strong armed by the HO at the time to not do that. There was lots of "well if you don't sign..." or "you won't be able to do..."

It would be nice to see, in the rulebook, exactly what a player is allowed to do/prohibited from doing if they a) refuse to sign with the team that drafts them, b) refuses to sign for what would be their 5th season in the J, c) doesn't get drafted at all, d) gets drafted but not signed.

Personally, I would like to have the way to declare my next player ineligible for the SHL draft and play my whole 5 seasons in the minors. Cap at 425 tpe, or whatever the max is at the time, and auto-retire after the end of the 5th season. Remain on the J teams payroll the whole time, and never take a dime from an SHL team I would never play for.

SMJHL rulebook s.4(d)(ii) & (iii) clarifies your points, though not as explicitly as you'd like.

(ii) Any player not drafted to the SHL is NOT considered a Send-down. They are also NOT considered a Rookie. These players may complete SMJHL Personal Coaching, SHL Point Tasks, SHL Weekly Trainings, and Activity Checks. They may complete SMJHL Team Training Camp only for their sophomore season.
(iii) A SMJHL player must enter the SHL via draft. A player may not bypass the SMJHL to sign directly to an SHL team. A player may not declare themselves ineligible for either the SMJHL or SHL Draft (i.e. may not declare themselves Free Agents).

We've had this come up with some of our players in NL over the years and if you are signed to an SMJHL contract after your SHL Draft (regardless of whether you were drafted and un-signed or not drafted at all)

- You do everything SHL players can do (barring following exclusion(s))
- In your d+1 you are allowed to do SMJHL TTC instead of SHL
- Following your d+1, you are not allowed to do any team training camp

I don't think it's necessary to create a system to auto-retire your player when you can just retire them yourself when your 5 years is up.

Editing just to clarify (iii) in regards to your point about wanting to declare yourself ineligible. This is all under the current rules but:

Legally, you cannot do that because they want to prevent skipping draft to go to FA even though this is a different motive/situation. However, you can definitely make your intentions known to SHL teams (to hit 425 and retire immediately after SMJHL) and I'm fairly certain you'd go undrafted and be free to return to the SMJHL. Additionally, even if a team did decide to draft you, you're free to not sign with them and return to the SMJHL. AFAIK, both of these situations would then allow you to earn TPE under (ii) even though the language there just says not drafted just based on what has been allowed in the past.

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Wawazat · 09-21-2020, 11:42 PM

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