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**RomanesEuntDomus** · 03-28-2021, 05:23 PM

I've seen this topic dicussed quite a bit already over the last few months but it tended to happen tangentially and not really in a designated place for it... So I thought why not make a thread for it?

So yeah, what are peoples thoughts on potentially going to 16 team playoffs? It definitely comes with some drawbacks but I think it would still be a significant step up compared to the clusterfucky mess that FHM is forcing on us right now. It would make the system a lot less complicated and would be much cleaner and fairer. It would also give a lot more teams something to play and fight for compared to what we have right now, where the season is already over for a significant portion of the league the second it starts.

Of course the downside of this would be that the quality of the competition in the playoffs gets watered down somewhat and you could claim that we are making it too easy and handing out participation trophies by allowing a large majority of teams into the first round of the playoffs. Also, while things get more interesting for some teams in the lower third, they simultaneously would probably get less interesting for those who would be fighting for the playoffs by todays standards, aka certain portions of the midfield.

My counter to that would be that having more teams be active and play meaningful games for as long as possible is generally a good thing for the league. For the best teams in the league it wouldn't really make that big of a difference whether they got a bye or had to play one of the weaker teams in round one, they would still be massive favorites with a huge advantage earned by their regular season performances. If they are as good as they think then they should have no trouble beating a bottom-tier team while for the players on that bottom-tier team, even making the playoffs and having the tiny chance at an upset will make the whole season a lot more meaningful and interesting. And it's not like they would be guaranteed their spot either, they would still have to beat out some other teams for it. And I would argue that right now, the regular season is already largely meaningless for the majority of the league: for the top-third because they know from day one that they will make the postseason, and for the bottom-third because they know early on that they won't. So expanding the playoffs wouldn't really make things worse in that regard.

But ultimately the main argument for this switch wouldn't even be to open the playoffs up to more people, that's just a side effect that I think is more positive than a lot of people recognize, but to get rid of the shitty system that we are stuck with now due to FHM's restrictions. In my opinion the positives outweigh the negatives on this one. What are your thoughts?

***hhh81*** · 03-28-2021, 05:34 PM

Imagine how exciting all those Great Lakes series before the finals would be! Not a joke, quite seriously those would be great series.

A downside from the current context is some of the best hockey would consistently happen in the semi- and conference finals of the, Eastern Conference, as 4 of the league's best 6 teams are there, taking some excitement out of the finals if the East consistently steamrolls whoever comes out of the competitively weaker west right now. Another thing against it I've heard several people say is it makes the playoffs longer, which I think is a good and bad thing. Another round does lengthen the season, but almost all teams would be involved in that case, so more overall excitement.

The current system is competitively a little more balanced not locking people into conferences. The issue is the pants-on-head silly 1v2 on one side of the bracket for ??? reason. THere's nothing we can do about that.

16 team playoff also lines up well when we expand again in the next 3-5 seasons (hopefully sooner). The league needs it right now, even if some people don't see it.

I think 16-teams is a good move. I don't make the decisions, though. It'd be interesting to see how they decide what team is left out--is it the last place in the Atlantic/Northwest? Is it whoever is last place in the conference (meaning you could have 5 teams from one division and 3 from the other?) Eventually it would solve itself with a 20 team league, but in the meantime the answer to that question could take some excitement out of playoff races if it's guaranteed both of SFP and NOLA make the playoffs even if everyone in the NW is 10-20 points higher than them, for example.

*JURT* · 03-28-2021, 07:09 PM

03-28-2021, 05:34 PMhhh81 Wrote: I've heard several people say is it makes the playoffs longer

Does it? I think it would only mean everyone plays in the first round, making the first round seems longer, and that no-one gets a bye to the second round.

Henrik · 03-29-2021, 01:32 AM

Did someone mentioned expansion? Yes please.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 03-29-2021, 09:25 AM

03-28-2021, 07:09 PMlespoils Wrote:
03-28-2021, 05:34 PMhhh81 Wrote: I've heard several people say is it makes the playoffs longer

Does it? I think it would only mean everyone plays in the first round, making the first round seems longer, and that no-one gets a bye to the second round.

Yeah that's how i saw it as well, we wouldnt actually add a round but just eliminate the byes, which always suck anyway.

Aside from that hhh brings up good points and I largely agree with his conclusions. I also think that in a league like this one, with fewer teams than in real life, Divisions are pretty pointless and should play as little of a role as possible when it comes to Playoff seeding. In fact i would argue that we could get rid of Divisions altogether and just have two Conferences If FHM allows it, although that would probably be too extreme for a lot of people.

And if we throw Expansion into the mix, the whole idea becomes even more viable of course.

PremierBromanov · 03-29-2021, 09:35 AM

I think the playoff push is really important, not only to regular season excitement but also for the playoffs actually being relatively interesting for the first round. It's not just the idea of "participation trophies" -- which i think is a rather trivialized aspect of the argument -- It's more the fact that TBB/BAP/SFP shouldn't have to play BUF/HAM/CHI/TOR for 3 or 4 games. Does anyone really want to watch that? Like, what is even the point of the regular season if you just basically automatically make it in if you aren't the worst team in the conference?

I'm not saying the divisions are perfect, nor is our current solution, but we are a long way off from such a large playoff pool. There's not much really to argue here, I just think that the playoff push is such a big thing for a lot of people.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 03-29-2021, 10:41 AM

03-29-2021, 09:35 AMPremierBromanov Wrote: I think the playoff push is really important, not only to regular season excitement but also for the playoffs actually being relatively interesting for the first round. It's not just the idea of "participation trophies" -- which i think is a rather trivialized aspect of the argument -- It's more the fact that TBB/BAP/SFP shouldn't have to play BUF/HAM/CHI/TOR for 3 or 4 games. Does anyone really want to watch that? Like, what is even the point of the regular season if you just basically automatically make it in if you aren't the worst team in the conference?

I'm not saying the divisions are perfect, nor is our current solution, but we are a long way off from such a large playoff pool. There's not much really to argue here, I just think that the playoff push is such a big thing for a lot of people.

I think there are two things you might be missing in terms of the playoff push. The first would be that this wouldn't eliminate the playoff push, it would only move it down the Standings, from the midfield to the lower-to-bottom tier. So that push would still largely exist in the same way it is today, it would only be different teams that are involved.

And secondly, I think you are overestimating the scope of that push, which is understandable that your team just managed to get into it for the first time which was obviously exciting. But for a large portion of the league, the playoff push is a non-factor already. At least half and often times up to three quarters of the league never get to be a part of it in any given season. More often than not, the top-third of the league is in automatically and the bottom-third does not have a chance, and unlike in the past this doesn't became apparent 30 games into the season but within the first handful of sims. After that first week or so, the playoff race is largely over for the majority of the teams already and it becomes a race for individual stats more than anything else. Hell, over the last few seasons even teams in the midfield, who should be the ones fighting for a playoff spot, often didn't get to be part of any meaningful races due to the way our divisions are set up - and it's precisely that kind of setup that I think the league would benefit from getting rid of.

PremierBromanov · 03-29-2021, 11:09 AM

03-29-2021, 10:41 AMRomanesEuntDomus Wrote:
03-29-2021, 09:35 AMPremierBromanov Wrote: I think the playoff push is really important, not only to regular season excitement but also for the playoffs actually being relatively interesting for the first round. It's not just the idea of "participation trophies" -- which i think is a rather trivialized aspect of the argument -- It's more the fact that TBB/BAP/SFP shouldn't have to play BUF/HAM/CHI/TOR for 3 or 4 games. Does anyone really want to watch that? Like, what is even the point of the regular season if you just basically automatically make it in if you aren't the worst team in the conference?

I'm not saying the divisions are perfect, nor is our current solution, but we are a long way off from such a large playoff pool. There's not much really to argue here, I just think that the playoff push is such a big thing for a lot of people.

I think there are two things you might be missing in terms of the playoff push. The first would be that this wouldn't eliminate the playoff push, it would only move it down the Standings, from the midfield to the lower-to-bottom tier. So that push would still largely exist in the same way it is today, it would only be different teams that are involved.

And secondly, I think you are overestimating the scope of that push, which is understandable that your team just managed to get into it for the first time which was obviously exciting. But for a large portion of the league, the playoff push is a non-factor already. At least half and often times up to three quarters of the league never get to be a part of it in any given season. More often than not, the top-third of the league is in automatically and the bottom-third does not have a chance, and unlike in the past this doesn't became apparent 30 games into the season but within the first handful of sims. After that first week or so, the playoff race is largely over for the majority of the teams already and it becomes a race for individual stats more than anything else. Hell, over the last few seasons even teams in the midfield, who should be the ones fighting for a playoff spot, often didn't get to be part of any meaningful races due to the way our divisions are set up - and it's precisely that kind of setup that I think the league would benefit from getting rid of.

I think i would disagree on that assessment, but you are right that I am a little biased here. But the playoff push was pretty tight for great lakes and atlantic, and I'd imagine the west had their share. It's not always going to be up until the end of the season or even trade deadline, but that playoff push directly impacts the moves made at the trade deadline. I think the kind of movement we see from teams trying to acquire that missing piece to even make the playoffs, especially contenders in the great lakes, is part of what makes this league exciting. I dont think anyone really wants to play in a league where you get drafted and never move. This is part of the reason people are so bored by IIHF. That lateral movement is directly impacted by the playoff positions being scarce, and that scarcity also gives value to even being in the playoffs in the first place. Even if the playoff push is more or less settled by game 33, its still a litmus test for how your team is doing, and I just dont really care for the idea of having 16 out of 18 teams be in the tournament. Why even play a regular season, at that point?

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