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JT3 · 04-06-2021, 05:08 PM

04-06-2021, 04:55 PMFlowseidon Wrote:
04-06-2021, 04:53 PMJT3 Wrote: Does the All-Star Committee follow the same discussion processes as the HoF Committee? How do you come to these results and decide that this is fine? Is it just a ballot that is then submitted and tallied or something?

I'm not sure what their process is, though I would definitely like to hear more as I think there is obvious room for improvement here. If someone knows it, please fill me in and I'll look to see what we can adapt and bring forward into next season.

I'm not 100% certain either but I believe they have a lot of open discussion in their discord server about players. Could be something the All-Star team could adapt to. Obviously Allstar is a little more difficult as there are probably quite a few players to discuss, but I'm sure there's some way some discussion could be implemented.

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dankoa · 04-06-2021, 05:10 PM

fire everyone who voted only for the top point scorers and rebuild the committee with people who give a fuck about doing the job properly imo

*Buster* · 04-06-2021, 05:13 PM

04-06-2021, 05:10 PMdankoa Wrote: fire everyone who voted only for the top point scorers and rebuild the committee with people who give a fuck about doing the job properly imo

This. I would be calling the same if us on the awards pulled this.

DELIRIVM · 04-06-2021, 05:13 PM

04-06-2021, 05:06 PMFlowseidon Wrote: No offense, but you post these friendly and nicely formulated messages every season at this point, but then when actual improvements are suggested you guys disappear halfway through the discussion and nothing changes. At what point does the hollow PR-talk stop and we conclude that this just isn't working?

I'd cut you some slack in regards to the ASG and not all teams being represented there, that is something that can happen when a new feature like this is set up and you have to come up with a new rule set on the fly. But the actual All-Star teams have severe problems for seasons now and if this season is any indication then they are getting worse, not better.

I hear you. Believe me. I'm not trying to do it as a PR speak, but I am genuinely interested in others opinions on what would help get the right players. Finding a problem is very easy, creating a solution is much harder. What do you suggest? I thought I had responded to everything last time, but may have missed some things. As always, my discord and PMs are open for chats.

I have received far more in terms of suggestions, possible solutions, etc than I have in my entire time. Potential solutions are very valuable, and they can be used to help drive things going forward. When it's just "these are the wrong selections" or memeing on everything/
[/quote]

All you really need to do is expand the teams to be like the roster of a real team. Then have a requirement of one player per team minimum. And have your All-Star Committee members put a sentence or two down for each of their votes explaining why they voted for such person. Honestly, it's a pretty easy fix in my mind.

Huck24 · 04-06-2021, 05:13 PM

Regardless of how these players were picked and the reasoning behind it, I just wanted to say congratulations to all of them. You all had very solid seasons! Well done.

**leafsftw1967** · 04-06-2021, 05:14 PM

04-06-2021, 05:08 PMJT3 Wrote:
04-06-2021, 04:55 PMFlowseidon Wrote: I'm not sure what their process is, though I would definitely like to hear more as I think there is obvious room for improvement here. If someone knows it, please fill me in and I'll look to see what we can adapt and bring forward into next season.

I'm not 100% certain either but I believe they have a lot of open discussion in their discord server about players. Could be something the All-Star team could adapt to. Obviously Allstar is a little more difficult as there are probably quite a few players to discuss, but I'm sure there's some way some discussion could be implemented.

The SHL awards committee does the same having open debate through the nomination and the award ballot selection processes where everyone chimes in. That type of platform is where I have found opens up new considerations and forces people to take a deep dive into justifying certain players over others and hear counter arguments to really get a good sense of what players should be more qualified over others for recognition and why.

*Flowseidon* · 04-06-2021, 05:15 PM

04-06-2021, 05:13 PMDELIRIVM Wrote:
04-06-2021, 05:06 PMFlowseidon Wrote: No offense, but you post these friendly and nicely formulated messages every season at this point, but then when actual improvements are suggested you guys disappear halfway through the discussion and nothing changes. At what point does the hollow PR-talk stop and we conclude that this just isn't working?

I'd cut you some slack in regards to the ASG and not all teams being represented there, that is something that can happen when a new feature like this is set up and you have to come up with a new rule set on the fly. But the actual All-Star teams have severe problems for seasons now and if this season is any indication then they are getting worse, not better.

I hear you. Believe me. I'm not trying to do it as a PR speak, but I am genuinely interested in others opinions on what would help get the right players. Finding a problem is very easy, creating a solution is much harder. What do you suggest? I thought I had responded to everything last time, but may have missed some things. As always, my discord and PMs are open for chats.

I have received far more in terms of suggestions, possible solutions, etc than I have in my entire time. Potential solutions are very valuable, and they can be used to help drive things going forward. When it's just "these are the wrong selections" or memeing on everything/

All you really need to do is expand the teams to be like the roster of a real team. Then have a requirement of one player per team minimum. And have your All-Star Committee members put a sentence or two down for each of their votes explaining why they voted for such person. Honestly, it's a pretty easy fix in my mind.
[/quote]

I am looking into fair ways to limit for next season, though I have some concerns regarding expanding the rosters to be that large. I do believe that justification, and a review of that will be a step forward, and hopefully lead things better, as well as generating more discussion with the team outside of noms/voting

*Flowseidon* · 04-06-2021, 05:17 PM

04-06-2021, 05:14 PMleafsftw1967 Wrote:
04-06-2021, 05:08 PMJT3 Wrote: I'm not 100% certain either but I believe they have a lot of open discussion in their discord server about players. Could be something the All-Star team could adapt to. Obviously Allstar is a little more difficult as there are probably quite a few players to discuss, but I'm sure there's some way some discussion could be implemented.

The SHL awards committee does the same having open debate through the nomination and the award ballot selection processes where everyone chimes in. That type of platform is where I have found opens up new considerations and forces people to take a deep dive into justifying certain players over others and hear counter arguments to really get a good sense of what players should be more qualified over others for recognition and why.

That sounds like a pretty good way to go about it. I think a more open discussion amongst the team will help, especially as it gives people the opportunity to make cases for some others may not have considered.

I'll start working on getting things setup to generate more discussion so that it can be a more involved process next year

EricNCSU · 04-06-2021, 05:18 PM

So lemme get this straight... Eller and Goodman tied for votes...

Eller won 40% of his games and let in 3+ goals a game.

Goodman won 80% of his games and let in less than 2 goals a game. Literally LEAD THE LEAGUE in GAA....

In what universe does this make sense?

Thelastheraclid · 04-06-2021, 05:22 PM

Krash about to start his own all star team. With hookers and black jack.

**RomanesEuntDomus** · 04-06-2021, 05:29 PM

Quote:
04-06-2021, 05:06 PMFlowseidon Wrote: No offense, but you post these friendly and nicely formulated messages every season at this point, but then when actual improvements are suggested you guys disappear halfway through the discussion and nothing changes. At what point does the hollow PR-talk stop and we conclude that this just isn't working?

I'd cut you some slack in regards to the ASG and not all teams being represented there, that is something that can happen when a new feature like this is set up and you have to come up with a new rule set on the fly. But the actual All-Star teams have severe problems for seasons now and if this season is any indication then they are getting worse, not better.

I hear you. Believe me. I'm not trying to do it as a PR speak, but I am genuinely interested in others opinions on what would help get the right players. Finding a problem is very easy, creating a solution is much harder. What do you suggest? I thought I had responded to everything last time, but may have missed some things. As always, my discord and PMs are open for chats.

I have received far more in terms of suggestions, possible solutions, etc than I have in my entire time. Potential solutions are very valuable, and they can be used to help drive things going forward. When it's just "these are the wrong selections" or memeing on everything/

In my opinion there are at least three important factors here that need to be looked into:

1. The voting system
2. The statistical basis
3. The discussion process

I already talked about these things a bunch in last years thread and don't wanna repeat too much of it but I can dig those posts up as well if necessary. But in a nutshell:

1. The current voting system with it's positional breakdown and the wildcards just doesn't seem to work as intended and is too messy. There are both easier and more sophisticated system out there depending on which route you wanna go and I'd suggest looking into some of those.

2. Do the Committee members have the right statistical ressources available to them to base their decisions on? Maybe this isn't them being dumb but they just don't have access to the kind of data they need or it is too hard to operate? For example there is a super helpful sheet that we work with in the awards committee that combines all the regular and advanced stats and also let's you play around with them through filters etc which is just a tremendous help... Do you guys have that sheet as well or do you use other ressources?

3. Is there an actual discussion process going on in a dedicated Discord for example, or do people just send in their ballots more or less by themselves? Drawing from my experiences in the Awards and HOF Committees again, the discussions in them are about the most valuable thing there is in the process of finding the most deserving people for this leagues honors. Bouncing ideas and different opinions off each other is super helpful and most importantly, it makes you realize your own blind spots. Krashwagen is a prime example here, he wasn't really on my radar either until someone else brought him up in our discussions and only then did I realize how great his season was. These kinds of oversights would happen to all of us all the time if it wasnt for these discussions. So does the ASG-Committee not have enough of those? Or do they exist already but someone like Krashwagen still slipped through? If that's the case then there either is something very wrong with the way these discussions are conducted or it is indeed a problem with the quality of the committee members...

And I don't wanna touch too much on individuals here but yes, you probably do need to look at the people in the committee as well and see if they are doing a good job. Because when I looked at last seasons results it was pretty clear that at least one or two voters had clear biases towards players from their own teams and that just shouldn'be acceptable in a committee like this. If you wanna save yourself the headache of calling out people like that then you can also just disband the entire committee and we re-hire those people who did a good job and who re-apply, along with some fresh blood.

*Flowseidon* · 04-06-2021, 05:40 PM

Heads up, I'm just removing the quote block because it's getting pretty massive at this point. Want to try and keep things a little more clear.

1. So, some background here. When I was coming into the role, I was seeing a lot of complaints around a WCW type of setup being too restrictive, and in that case, Centers who might be more deserving would be left off for a winger who may not have had as good of a season, just because there's more room for wingers. The reasoning I choose the wildcard forward is essentially that it allows some flexibility for that 3rd forward to go to who people would consider the next most valuable. Now, maybe that gets messier with the ranked choice that we're doing, and I'm certainly open to that discussion for the types of in terms of systems, do you have specific suggestions for where to look, systems you think would be good, or resources I should check out?

2. We have been using the indexes. Those do have both the standard and advanced stats. I think moving to a more formalized document is a good idea, and something that could be used to make things easier on the committee members and help them get the right players. Would someone on the All-Star committee mind PMing me a link to theirs? I'll take a look and work on adapting that for next season on my own end.

3. It's been by and large nominate and then vote. This is a failure on my part, and talking with people here/disc/PMs has really shown I can't allow this to continue. I can commit to implement this suggestion and try to move discord and generating more discussion through the season and as it comes time to nom/vote on everything. I agree that fostering the discussion is necessary, and honestly the top priority of all this.

I agree that there needs to be an evaluation of putting in the effort. I have been tracking some statistics over the past couple seasons in terms of voting etc, but I think with the move forward into more open discussion, etc that I will be able to more accurately track who is and isn't putting in the efforts needed.

*slothfacekilla* · 04-06-2021, 06:02 PM

Yikes I hope people aren't getting paid to do these votes

***hhh81*** · 04-06-2021, 06:05 PM

04-06-2021, 05:10 PMdankoa Wrote: fire everyone who voted only for the top point scorers and rebuild the committee with people who give a fuck about doing the job properly imo

Blasoon · 04-06-2021, 06:48 PM

Newish user but I do think that publishing votes and explanations with two to three sentences as to why would be a good factor for accountability. I get why not, but man, it would really help to see why people are voting the way they are.

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